# So tell me, what defines a True Atheist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222 "2017-03-02T18:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/61 "2017-03-03T00:29:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually I asked what was “True Atheism”, I never gave my own definitions, You said that atheism is “a form of Faith or Belief,” and that is flat wrong. Most atheists exhibit a _lack_ of faith or belief. I realize that some theists assert that “it takes just as much faith to be an atheist” (some even say it takes more faith), but despite what our President says, the fact that you can find people who agree with you doesn’t mean you are right. The exception, which I noted, are the hard atheists who positively assert that there is no god. I have seen no evidence for that position, nor can I conceive of any – unless you are talking about a particular god with well-defined characteristics, and even then the evidence could not compel 100% certainty. So I agree that hard atheism can be a form of faith or belief. But IMO it’s more likely to merely be shoddy thinking. It’s akin to looking all over your house for polar bears, and assuming they don’t exist when you don’t find any. > [@](#): > > but yes, it would appear\* True\* Atheists are more or less _Hard_ Atheists. It’s your thread, so I guess you can define “True Atheists” any way you want. But I see no justification for your definition, so I’ll feel free to ignore it. > [@](#): > > But those that seem to spend all their time mocking faith would go more into hard atheist. I’ve never encountered anyone who spends all his time mocking faith. If I did, I would assume that he was mentally unbalanced. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/62 "2017-03-03T00:34:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But isnt that the difference between being agnostic and atheist? > > \*a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God. > \* > > Certainly there is a lack of solid evidence. But saying “I have seen no evidence that convinces me there is a God, but my mind is open to such evidence” is being\* agnostic.\* > > - atheism is the belief that there are no deities.\* A atheist is\* certain\* there is no god. Agnosticism is a position on knowledge, specifically, the lack of knowledge. Atheism is a position on belief, specifically the lack of belief. A person who doesn’t believe in gods because they have no knowledge of gods is an agnostic atheist. The terms describe different things, and thus aren’t exclusive. And no, atheism is not a belief; it is the absence of a specific belief. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/63 "2017-03-03T01:03:22Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > I’ve never encountered anyone who spends all his time mocking faith. If I did, I would assume that he was mentally unbalanced. I spent a number of years associated with a formal CSICOP-type group and while I have no tolerance for paranormal believers/fakers and no like for religious issues, I eventually found my way elsewhere because of the relentless antagonism and negativity of some of the members. Firmly negative towards bs and woo is one thing, but endless bashing is another. So yeah, people who can’t resist mocking and baiting the religious are out there. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/64 "2017-03-03T07:09:29Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Is a True Atheist like a True Scotsman? Kinda the opposite, as the True Atheist is not likely to give a “Hoot, mon…” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/65 "2017-03-03T07:17:33Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Surely the answer to “what is a true atheist” is simple - holding the view that there is no God or no gods? That’s useful, but what would be a good descriptor for someone who doesn’t think the question is worth sparing any of his attention? In this thread, of course, the appropriate descriptor would be either “Threadshitter” or “non-participant,” but how about out in meatspace? ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/66 "2017-03-03T09:58:56Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > …what would be a good descriptor for someone who doesn’t think the question is worth sparing any of his attention? One term is ‘nontheist’ > **[Nontheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism)** > > Nontheism or non-theism is a range of both religious and non-religious attitudes characterized by the absence of espoused belief in the existence of God or gods. Nontheism has generally been used to describe apathy or silence towards the subject of gods and differs from atheism, or active disbelief in any gods. It has been used as an umbrella term for summarizing various distinct and even mutually exclusive positions, such as agnosticism, ignosticism, ietsism, skepticism, pantheism, pandeis An ea... > [@](#): > > Nontheism has generally been used to describe apathy or silence towards the subject of God and differs from an antithetical, explicit atheism. Or you could go further and try ‘apatheism’, which appears to be a proselytising nontheism: > **[Apatheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheism)** > > Apatheism (/ˌæpəˈθiːɪzəm/; a portmanteau of apathy and theism) is the attitude of apathy toward the existence or non-existence of God(s). It is more of an attitude rather than a belief, claim, or belief system. The term was coined by Canadian sociologist Stuart Johnson. > An apatheist is someone who is not interested in accepting or rejecting any claims that gods do exist or do not exist. The existence of a god or gods is not rejected, but may be designated irrelevant. One of the first recorded a... > [@](#): > > …the philosophical view that one should be apathetic towards the existence or non-existence of god(s). But I’m quite happy with the simple answer ‘no religion’, which is the answer most people in the UK give when asked these days. > **[People of no religion outnumber Christians in England and Wales – study](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/23/no-religion-outnumber-christians-england-wales-study)** > > Proportion of population who describe themselves as Anglican has halved since 1983 ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/67 "2017-03-03T10:11:07Z")
Although I am aware of the particular development of this thread, I want to strictly address its question, which happens to have at least one point, in my opinion. Colloquially, an “atheist” can be defined as “a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings” ([dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com)). But in a discussion that aims to get to the bottom of things, this definition will turn out to be inadequate because various “spiritualists” regard themselves as atheists too. They seem to believe in a wide range of forces and energies that show moral and spiritual qualities. In my opinion, a good definition of the atheists should mention the lack of belief in any type of “divine” or supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/68 "2017-03-03T11:56:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you pray in a time of stress are you a True Atheist? > > If you say “Oh God!” are you a True Atheist? > > Is a True Atheist required to mock and revile faith? > Is a True Atheist required to mock and revile Organized Religion? Yes, yes, no, no. Really, those are rather easy questions. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/69 "2017-03-03T12:47:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you pray in a time of stress are you a True Atheist? > > If you say “Oh God!” are you a True Atheist? yes for both of these for me. And I have done both. I have certainly recited the words of a prayer, under stressful situations, whilst never believing a word of it and certainly never believing in any gods. It can just be something for the mouth to do while mind is elsewhere. Now if you ask whether I actually started praying\* to a god\*, in a time of stress…No, it never enters my head. If , of course, an atheist suddenly started believing in a god and so started praying _to them_ rather than just saying words, at that point they wouldn’t be an atheist in my view. But it is the belief, not the words of the prayer, that make the difference. Right up until that mental switch they were an atheist, then they aren’t for the period of time that they believe, then perhaps they may switch back again. None of these are particularly difficult or insightful questions if you will merely accept the simple definition I’ve already given you. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/70 "2017-03-03T13:21:17Z")
Using dictionary definitions to try and definine complex terms in a complex discussion is, IMHO, less than useful. Dictionaries provide language definitions, not necessarily complete functional ones. Trying to define a religious or philosophical stance by lining up formal word interpretations just about the most misdirecting approach there is. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/71 "2017-03-03T15:05:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If you pray in a time of stress are you a True Atheist? > > If you say “Oh God!” are you a True Atheist? If I call someone a “mother fucker” or a “shithead”, they are not meant to be taken literally. Similarly, saying “oh god” or “god damn” are not meant to imply a literal god. That is MY take. > [@](#): > > Is a True Atheist required to mock and revile faith? > > Is a True Atheist required to mock and revile Organized Religion? These are stupid questions. **Amateur Barbarian** had already answered this in post 3. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/72 "2017-03-03T15:08:42Z")
> [@PlaceboTarget](#): > > In my opinion, a good definition of the atheists should mention the lack of belief in any type of “divine” or supernatural. Why? Atheist means not believing in God or gods. Why should the same word be applied to people who don’t believe in “spirits” or “energies” or other new-age woo? “Skeptic” seems to work fine for that. No need to overload terms. I feel like people want to shoehorn a _particular type_ of atheist (usually the kind they’re familiar with) into the definition of the term, and then use other words to apply to other kinds of atheists. I’m not sure why that is a useful thing to do. There’s no particular thing you need to believe to be an atheist. You only need to _not_ believe in one particular thing. If there is a certain set of beliefs or philosophies you want to advocate for, come up with another name. “Humanist” and “Skeptic” are both terms that seem to apply to what people in this thread want to define as exclusively “atheist”. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/73 "2017-03-03T15:37:01Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > If there is a certain set of beliefs or philosophies you want to advocate for, come up with another name. “Humanist” and “Skeptic” are both terms that seem to apply to what people in this thread want to define as exclusively “atheist”. [“Naturalist”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)), [“materialist”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism), and (shudder) [“bright”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brights_movement) are also viable choices. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/74 "2017-03-03T15:45:20Z")
Sorry, no, “brights” must be allowed to die away like the daft symbol of insufferability it was from the onset. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/75 "2017-03-03T15:50:15Z")
No argument here. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/76 "2017-03-03T15:51:27Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Sorry, no, “brights” must be allowed to die away like the daft symbol of insufferability it was from the onset. This x 1000. This was one the most tone-deaf suggestions I’ve ever come across. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/77 "2017-03-03T15:58:16Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Is a True Atheist like a True Scotsman? No True atheist sugars his death. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/78 "2017-03-03T15:59:16Z")
Materialist is pretty bad, too, even if one of its exact meanings fits. I’d maintain that people free of godism aren’t the ones who need a special label. How about “normals” or “freebirds,” though? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/79 "2017-03-03T16:35:23Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I’d maintain that people free of godism aren’t the ones who need a special label. How about “normals” or “freebirds,” though? “Rationalist”? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/80 "2017-03-03T16:47:16Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Materialist is pretty bad, too, even if one of its exact meanings fits. “Materialist” is a fine word, that’s been misused in American culture for a long time to mean “greedy person who likes money and luxury”. I’m all for reclaiming it. > [@](#): > > I’d maintain that people free of godism aren’t the ones who need a special label. How about “normals” or “freebirds,” though? Othering and judgmental language should be avoided. We’re all just different kinds of people. Would you be ok with “normal” being the term for people who are white, or not transgender, or not on the autism spectrum? If not, you shouldn’t seek to hang that kind of language on anyone else. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=5)