# So tell me, what defines a True Atheist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222 "2017-03-02T18:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/121 "2017-03-05T00:55:57Z")
So the third time I attended my church, one of the guys sidled up to me after service and casually mentioned that he doesn’t really believe in this God stuff, but he really likes the people and community. He wasn’t coming because he was being dragged by a spouse - his wife is a Catholic who attends a different church. This person was a very faithful member of the congregation. He attends almost every week and is on the membership rolls (probably gives money to the church as well). I found that he likely wasn’t the only one in my (very liberal) Lutheran congregation who felt this way (though it is a distinct minority). And some of those were folks who didn’t believe in God, but thought we should follow the lessons of Jesus. So I ran into a curious phenomenon, the Atheistic Christian. Though I’m sure there are members of both parties that would disavow them from admittance. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/122 "2017-03-05T01:01:18Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So the third time I attended my church, one of the guys sidled up to me after service and casually mentioned that he doesn’t really believe in this God stuff, but he really likes the people and community. He wasn’t coming because he was being dragged by a spouse - his wife is a Catholic who attends a different church. This person was a very faithful member of the congregation. He attends almost every week and is on the membership rolls (probably gives money to the church as well). I found that he likely wasn’t the only one in my (very liberal) Lutheran congregation who felt this way (though it is a distinct minority). And some of those were folks who didn’t believe in God, but thought we should follow the lessons of Jesus. > > So I ran into a curious phenomenon, the Atheistic Christian. Though I’m sure there are members of both parties that would disavow them from admittance. Most of the people I know that go to church do so out of a sense of community. People treat you pretty well, usually, most people are trying to be on their best behavior. That’s where their friends are. That’s also where quite a bit of networking for businesses goes on. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/123 "2017-03-05T02:41:14Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So I ran into a curious phenomenon, the Atheistic Christian. Though I’m sure there are members of both parties that would disavow them from admittance. Well, you can’t swing a cat without hitting someone who claims to be a Christian, but whose every action shows that he either never read the Bible, or he cherry-picked it for permission to do what he wanted to do anyway. One of the “stupid Republican” threads just had a story about a doctor who quotes Jesus to support his goal of killing the ACA: “Just like Jesus said, ‘The poor will always be with us,’” he said. “There is a group of people that just don’t want health care and aren’t going to take care of themselves.” Pressed on that point, Marshall shrugged. “Just, like, homeless people. … I think just morally, spiritually, socially, [some people] just don’t want health care,” he said. > **[Two months ago, this doctor was delivering babies. Now he's at the nexus of...](https://www.statnews.com/2017/03/03/roger-marshall-kansas-obamacare/)** > > Marshall has joined the GOP Doctors Caucus, which has put itself at the center of the effort to repeal the Affordable Care Act. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/124 "2017-03-05T06:03:44Z")
Etymology may explain the origin of a term, but it fails to describe its function. And, in language, the use gives the norm. Take the word ‘hussy’, for instance. According to [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com), ‘hussy’ means 1. a brazen or immoral woman or 2. a mischievous, impudent, or ill-behaved girl. Since the word ‘hussy’ comes from ‘housewife’, one can see that the meaning of a word can change dramatically throughout the ages. Yet, some semantic connection remains. ‘Atheist’ is an international term. If I uttered the word ‘atheist’ in the presence of a German, a Russian and a Turkish in a bar in Paris, they would all know what I mean, including the bartender. And because it is used in social interactions, language is influenced by social conventions. The result is that, across the world, an atheist is regarded the same as a non-believer or a non-religious person. Of course it would be a lot more rigorous to refer to a person who does not believe in any deity, divine level of reality, spiritual ‘force’ or ‘energy’ as a materialist. But if I used this term with the aforementioned bar buddies, I would have a lot of explaining to do before they understand what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/125 "2017-03-05T06:09:44Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So I ran into a curious phenomenon, the Atheistic Christian. Though I’m sure there are members of both parties that would disavow them from admittance. This phenomenon has been addressed in the current twin thread: > [@A question for those that call themselves "Christian"](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/a-question-for-those-that-call-themselves-christian/781219/28): > > […] a lot of these people are “cultural Christians.” They don’t adhere much to the doctrines of their church, but call themselves Christians because that’s what you’re supposed to be. ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2017, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/126 "2017-03-05T18:31:06Z")
K9 #101 > [@](#): > > “i think that norma is confusing gnostic atheism with agnostic atheism. A gnostic atheist would say “i believe there is no god” while an agnostic atheist would say that “i don’t believe there is a god”. The two statements are very different. The latter statement bears no burden of proof (the former does).” shiftless2 ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/127 "2017-03-06T15:07:59Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > No, no, fuck no. > > This isn’t that hard. An atheist doesn’t believe in any god. Period. Some atheists go further and positively assert that there are no gods, but that isn’t a requirement. > > I don’t understand what’s so hard about that, but it seems to defeat many, many people, including the OP, and anyone else who says “It’s a form of Faith or Belief.” That is true only for the minority of atheists who positively assert that there is no god. Most atheists I know or have read, including very famous ones like Dawkins, do not make such an assertion. They just say that there is no convincing evidence. When it comes to Dawkins, he also argues (convincingly, IMHO), that the probability is vanishingly small. That there almost certainly is no god, but not that certainly there is none. [https://www.edge.org/conversation/why-there-almost-certainly-is-no-god](https://www.edge.org/conversation/why-there-almost-certainly-is-no-god) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/128 "2017-03-06T16:37:12Z")
It’s interesting that the question, “Do you believe in God?”, is framed in such a way as to assume that there is just one deity even up for consideration and that if the answer is “Yes” then beliefs of both sides will pretty much be copacetic. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/129 "2017-03-06T22:56:41Z")
When _you_ hear “Do you believe in god?” it just about always refers to jehovallah and some form of abrahamica. In other cultures, and from other religions, the question of what you believe will generally be framed differently. So, not really all that “interesting”, if you are not overthinking it. ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/130 "2017-03-07T13:00:45Z")
> [@](#): > > ““Atheist” derives from the word “άθεος”, which literally means “godless”.” e #116 Thanks for mentioning this. It’s unwise to ignore etymological roots. But it’s equally unwise to abandon all else in its light. con- meaning together spire meaning to breathe “Conspire” by literal translation from ancient Latin means: to breathe together But it’s a mistake in modern English to interpret the word “conspire” to be a reference to respiration. The prefix A- can mean either without, or not. Theism rather more addresses religion than god; a slim distinction to some perhaps. But they are not the same. Thus by modern etymological standards, “atheist” would be one without religion. BUT !! One can be without religion, and not be without god. > [@](#): > > “Religion is the bureaucracy that gets in the way of spirituality.” Bill Maher and > [@](#): > > “Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.” sometimes attributed to Seneca the Younger (c.3 BCE - CE 65) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/131 "2017-03-07T13:04:58Z")
> [@sear](#): > > BUT !! > > One can be without religion, and not be without god. You can dig into the original meanings of every single letter of the word “atheist” all you want, and it still won’t mean this. ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/132 "2017-03-07T13:14:56Z")
\*\* "You can dig into the original meanings of every single letter of the word “atheist” all you want, and it still won’t mean this. " C #131 \*\* Correct. You appear to have inferred what I did not imply. I stated a fact. I did not offer that fact as a definition for the word. But now that you’ve raised that issue: > [@](#): > > atheist (â´thê-îst) noun > One that disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods. > > Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/133 "2017-03-07T13:40:46Z")
> [@sear](#): > > I stated a fact. > I did not offer that fact as a definition for the word. It seems to me that you did more than state a fact. You made the claim that “Theism rather more addresses religion than god”. Where are you getting that from? Every definition of Theism that I can find seems to agree that it is the belief in the existence of deities, while Atheism is the lack of such a belief. So Theism first and foremost addresses god(s) and addresses religion only insofar as religions commonly postulate the existence of at least one god. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/134 "2017-03-07T13:52:52Z")
> [@sear](#): > > But now that you’ve raised that issue: Your dictionary definition of “atheist” isn’t exactly backing up your claim “theism rather more addresses religion than god.” ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/135 "2017-03-07T14:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > “It seems to me that you did more than state a fact. You made the claim that “Theism rather more addresses religion than god”. Where are you getting that from?” H #133 Didn’t the U.S. Founders get embroiled in this contention? Didn’t some claim to be deists rather than theists? > [@](#): > > “Every definition of Theism that I can find seems to agree that it is the belief in the existence of deities” And that is the distinction I was attempting to make. By now YOUR definition, theism is belief; an INternal state of mind. But wouldn’t god be also external, and eternal? You can’t distinguish between: - the existence of god, and - belief in the existence of god? > [@](#): > > “while Atheism is the lack of such a belief.” I would consider that agnosticism; a lack of belief. My understanding about the way the word “atheist” is used in contemporary English is to designate an affirmative disbelief. Atheism is an assertion of state of mind, belief / disbelief. Agnosticism is merely a confession of ignorance. It’s the contrast between belief vs knowledge. > [@](#): > > “Your dictionary definition of “atheist” isn’t exactly backing up your claim “theism rather more addresses religion than god.”” xv #134 Look closer. > [@](#): > > -ism suffix > 1.Action, process; practice: terrorism. > 2.Characteristic behavior or quality: heroism. > 3.a. State; condition; quality: pauperism. b. State or condition resulting from an excess of something specified: strychninism. > 4.Distinctive or characteristic trait: Latinism. > 5.a. Doctrine; theory; system of principles: pacifism. b. An attitude of prejudice against a given group: racism. > > [Middle English -isme, from Old French, from Latin -ismus, from Greek -ismos, n. suff…] > > Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. I’d say definition 5a would be appropriate here. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/136 "2017-03-07T14:29:27Z")
> [@sear](#): > > Look closer. > > I’d say definition 5a would be appropriate here. Why don’t you look closer at what I wrote? I said _Your dictionary definition of “atheist” isn’t exactly backing up your claim “theism rather more addresses religion than god.”_ Asking me to look closer at the fifth entry for “ism” doesn’t take away from my point. Your cherry picked usage of -ism does not help to define “theism” as relating to more about religion than god. Words are most accurately defined by how the public uses them; not by cherry picking a dictionary definition of a suffix used within that word. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/137 "2017-03-07T14:38:56Z")
> [@sear](#): > > Didn’t the U.S. Founders get embroiled in this contention? > Didn’t some claim to be deists rather than theists? Did they? I don’t know, and I don’t see how this is relevant here. The deist philosophy states that god(s) do not interfere with our world. This is not the concept we are debating here. > [@sear](#): > > By now YOUR definition, theism is belief; an INternal state of mind. But wouldn’t god be also external, and eternal? > > You can’t distinguish between: > > - the existence of god, and > - belief in the existence of god? That depends on how you define belief. An example: I have no way of knowing with 100% certainty whether Antarctica exists. But the evidence available to me leads me to conclude that it does. Also I have no way of knowing with 100% certainty whether gods do exist. But the evidence available to me leads me to conclude that they don’t. Since in both cases I cannot be 100% sure, you may call my conclusions a “belief”. But I would disagree with you. Because the people, who \*believe \*in god(s) usually do not simply interpret the evidence differently, coming to a different conclusion. Instead they explicitly do not require evidence in the first place. Such is the nature of faith, and that is why I disagree when people claim that atheism was simply a different kind of faith. ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/138 "2017-03-07T15:33:28Z")
#136 Common (mis)use can and does modify the meaning of words over time. “Celibate” originally meant unmarried. But the prudish euphemistic meaning has overtaken the formal definition. So following your valid point; which of the two of us is the more guilty for participating to problem you’ve defined: > [@](#): > > “Words are most accurately defined by how the public uses them” Reductio ad absurdum: How can a (dis)believer reject ALL notions of ALL gods, without a definition that covers them all? If humans were created by a big bang, and evolution, and god is our creator, then wouldn’t our creator be a big bang, and evolution? If so, how could we deny our creator / god; unless our definition is specific enough to designate that? > [@](#): > > “I don’t see how this is relevant here.” H #137 You’re contesting the distinction. > [@](#): > > “This is not the concept we are debating here.” I don’t think distinguishing between religion and god is immaterial over 130 posts into this topic. But if you do you’re welcome to ignore it. You think brow-beating me will unring the bell? > [@](#): > > “I have no way of knowing with 100% certainty whether Antarctica exists. But …” H #137 There is no burden of disproof. Let’s wait until the first shred of evidence appears. So far, nada. I understand the concept of the Jim Cary / The Truman Show scale of conspiracy. I believe one would need an EXCEEDINGLY inflated self-assessment to believe that an entire planet, over 7 billion humans would tailor their lives to conspire against them for no obvious gain. I’m not a metallurgist. I’m not an automotive engineer. I’m not a physicist. But I’m not overly alarmed to climb into my comfortable modern car, and careen to the store in it at 15 MPH over the posted speed limit. I’ve been pulling shenanigans like this in automobiles, watercraft, and aircraft for half a century. Still alive. Perhaps there’s something to it. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/139 "2017-03-07T16:13:00Z")
> [@sear](#): > > Common (mis)use can and does modify the meaning of words over time. > “Celibate” originally meant unmarried. But the prudish euphemistic meaning has overtaken the formal definition. > So following your valid point; which of the two of us is the more guilty for participating to problem you’ve defined: You are, for the reason I already posted. > [@](#): > > Reductio ad absurdum: > How can a (dis)believer reject ALL notions of ALL gods, without a definition that covers them all? > > If humans were created by a big bang, and evolution, and god is our creator, then wouldn’t our creator be a big bang, and evolution? > If so, how could we deny our creator / god; unless our definition is specific enough to designate that? An atheist does not have to reject notions. He just has to be without belief in the existence of any gods. Yes, how ‘god’ is defined is relevant, but this has nothing to do with the discussion I’m having with you. We are discussing your claim that “theism rather more addresses religion than god.” And no, our “creator” would not be a big bang and evolution. Atheists generally don’t claim that humans were “created” by evolution or the Big Bang. > [@](#): > > You’re contesting the distinction. > > I don’t think distinguishing between religion and god is immaterial over 130 posts into this topic. > But if you do you’re welcome to ignore it. You think brow-beating me will unring the bell? He didn’t brow beat you. And he’s right. Your attempt to answer Hiker’s question to you with questions regarding the Founders didn’t answer his question at at all and was off-topic. Some FF didn’t claim to be deists **rather** than theists; they just claimed to be deists. Deists are a type of theist…and this has NOTHING to do with the claim you made that Hiker is trying to discuss with you. > [@](#): > > I’m not a metallurgist. > I’m not an automotive engineer. > I’m not a physicist. > But I’m not overly alarmed to climb into my comfortable modern car, and careen to the store in it at 15 MPH over the posted speed limit. > I’ve been pulling shenanigans like this in automobiles, watercraft, and aircraft for half a century. > Still alive. Perhaps there’s something to it. WTF? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/140 "2017-03-07T16:19:46Z")
> [@ISiddiqui](#): > > So I ran into a curious phenomenon, the Atheistic Christian. Though I’m sure there are members of both parties that would disavow them from admittance. [Two percent of Church of England (Anglican/Episcopalian) priests are atheists, and sixteen percent are agnostic.](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/survey-finds-2-of-anglican-priests-are-not-believers-9821899.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=8)