# So tell me, what defines a True Atheist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222 "2017-03-02T18:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/161 "2017-03-07T17:43:36Z")
Any definition of “God” that encompasses anything and everything a person could possibly deem to be a diety is useless, as far as I’m concerned. It is juvenile wordplay instead of serious discussion. We already _have_ a word that means everything, and that word is Everything. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/162 "2017-03-07T17:45:21Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually there is plenty of evidence- miracles. Even Manifestations. And the spread of some religions is amazing. > > So, it isnt that there is NO evidence, there is no evidence\* you accept. \* Can anyone spot the very important word I used that he left out of his post? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/163 "2017-03-07T17:45:54Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > You have poisoned the well by asking what defines a true atheist, rather than simply asking what is an atheist. > … > > So how about going back and asking a clean question, rather than a loaded one. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569) “_What exactly defines one as a “True Christian”, and not one in name only?_” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/164 "2017-03-07T17:47:01Z")
> [@x-ray\_vision](#): > > But can you answer your own question?: > > \*I require evidence before I draw a conclusion (or at least that’s how I think of myself; let’s stipulate that it’s true). > > Question: how did I decide that was the best way of reaching a conclusion?\* I don’t have a great answer to that question. Someone earlier suggested that recognizing the provisional status of the conclusion is important, and I agree. The other reasons I’ve accepted it are: 1. It’s an approach that allows me to make tentative claims about the cosmos; 2. It’s consistent with principles of cause-and-effect and principles of logic and reason, and I’m not sure how to think without relying on these; 3. It seems to get good results. All of these can be criticized from the same place, namely, “so what?” and with enough "so what?"s I end up tongue-tied; maybe eventually it gets back to a very hesitant, provisional sort of faith. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/165 "2017-03-07T17:48:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569) > > “_What exactly defines one as a “True Christian”, and not one in name only?_” 1. I have said _several_ times that the word “True” was awkward, and never used it again. 2. Why do you keep bringing that up in _this_ thread? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/166 "2017-03-07T17:48:51Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually there is plenty of evidence- miracles. Even Manifestations. And the spread of some religions is amazing. > > So, it isnt that there is NO evidence, there is no evidence\* you accept. \* Claims of miracles and manifestations is not the same as there being miracles and manifestations. The spread of religions being amazing (supposing one thinks it is amazing) isn’t evidence for any gods. Even you don’t believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/167 "2017-03-07T17:49:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can anyone spot the very important word I used that he left out of his post? Vary? Fie! A bull! ---
**Author:** ![sear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cab0a1/32.png) [@sear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sear)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/168 "2017-03-07T17:52:31Z")
> [@](#): > > “Any definition of “God” that encompasses anything and everything a person could possibly deem to be a diety is useless, as far as I’m concerned. It is juvenile wordplay instead of serious discussion.” C #161 Excellent. How very fortunate and luxurious for you that you have the authority and flexibility to overrule the dictionary! > [@](#): > > pantheism (pàn´thê-îz´em) noun > > 1. A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena. > 2. Belief in and worship of all gods. > > - pan´theist noun > - pan´theis´tic or pan´theis´tical adjective > - pan´theis´tically adverb > > Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/169 "2017-03-07T17:54:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569) > > “_What exactly defines one as a “True Christian”, and not one in name only?_” It appears to me that Czarcasm used the term “true Christian” because the quote he started the OP over included “but in reality are not adherents of the Christian doctrine.” The person that wrote that quote was implying that some self identifying Christians aren’t true Christians. It appears you took his use of that term for his thread personally, so you started this one. Strange taking offense at that, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/170 "2017-03-07T17:55:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569) > > “_What exactly defines one as a “True Christian”, and not one in name only?_” Problem is, Christianity has as defined belief system, even if it is variable among different traditions and sects. One can debate the relative importance of each belief, which are the correct ones, etc, but the idea that there is a proscribed belief system is not in dispute. Therefore, discussing who may fall into and out of the belief system is not a crazy topic. You should note that the OP of that thread dropped the “true” from his discussion, as not being helpful. Atheism makes no claims to having any tenets, so the question is what is true and what is not cannot be answered in the same way. What it ends up looking like is a gotcha game, built on the preposition that atheism is a belief system, which few atheist would argue is true. Many theists like to use that argument to discredit the atheist POV. Your response, which is to only quote a similarly titled thread that inspired yours, reinforces the idea that this thread is a “gotcha” in the face of a religious thread. Now, perhaps you’re not doing that and you are simply and genuinely interested in atheist point of views. Sadly, responses like I quoted make it harder to give you the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/171 "2017-03-07T17:55:56Z")
> [@sear](#): > > Excellent. > > How very fortunate and luxurious for you that you have the authority and flexibility to overrule the dictionary! Thank you for pointing out that there is a difference between reading a definition, and understanding a definition. ---
**Author:** ![Hiker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hiker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hiker)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/172 "2017-03-07T18:06:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > This “disbelief in Antarctica” comparison is rather insulting. I’ve already said I would examine any verifiable evidence for any “god” someone proposes…it’s just that no evidence for any “god” has been brought forward. Compare this to any ridiculous “disbelief” in Antarctica: > There are eyewitness accounts that support each other in specific details. > There are photographs. > There are movies. > For the right amount of money you can even visit it personally, _then come back and show off your own photographs and/or movies._ > > Some people seem to get annoyed when I compare a disbelief in gods to a disbelief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny, my reasoning being that there are equal amounts of evidence for the existence of each, but this comparison of the existence of gods to the existence of Antarctica is much more insulting to our intelligence. It was not my intention to insult anyone and, quite frankly, I do not see how I did. Theists sometimes make the point that since atheists cannot ever be 100% sure that god(s) do not exist, atheism is just a different kind of faith. What I was trying to show is that you can hardly ever be 100% sure of anything. You cannot be 100% sure about the existence of Antarctica, but you can draw a conclusion based on evidence. That is how we come to accept the existence of Antarctica. For the existence of gods there is no such evidence. That is why I, an atheist do not believe in it. The faithful on the other hand do not require compelling evidence for their belief. Some will even tell you that requiring evidence would indicate a “weakness” of their faith. This concept of believing without evidence separates atheism from a faith. Now, if you still think that my line of reasoning is an insult to your intelligence, please tell me why and I wll try to sort this out. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/173 "2017-03-07T18:15:36Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Your response, which is to only quote a similarly titled thread that inspired yours, reinforces the idea that this thread is a “gotcha” in the face of a religious thread. Now, perhaps you’re not doing that and you are simply and genuinely interested in atheist point of views. Sadly, responses like I quoted make it harder to give you the benefit of the doubt. Well, yes, as this thread has shown, there is a great deal of difference between various Atheist beliefs. I think, honestly it has been of value to discuss and debate this. It does show clearly that altho there may not be as many flavors of Atheism as there are of Christianity, there is certainly a wide spectrum. I am not really demanding anyone define “_True_ Atheist”. My point was that my Op is no more silly/stupid/logical fallacy than the other OP. I’d rather have a discussion of the many varieties of Atheism than yet another post attacking the basic question. Rather than attack the question, participate in the discussion, eh? Dont fight the hypothetical. Debate the question. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/174 "2017-03-07T18:17:36Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually there is plenty of evidence- miracles. You mean like one of my ancestors being a patron saint of beer making due to a miracle of a beer pot being refilled? You’re going to have to do better than that, for you are not convincing when you base your argument for the existence of your particular god on your not being able to determine whether events actually happened, and if they did, then your further not being able to explain why they happened. Ignorance does not prove god. If you talk to Mike Persinger nicely, he’ll let you wear his god helmet so that you will have all the evidence that you need to keep yourself convinced of whatever it is that you have already convinced yourself. Ask yourself why is it that when Persinger’s god helmet occasionally produces visions, the Christians see Christ but the Muslims see Allah? I suggest that your god is a figment of your imagination, and that the more we learn about how our minds work, the closer we will get to learning why you believe in God. Forget theology – neurotheology is where it’s at. > [@DrDeth](#): > > And the spread of some religions is amazing. The same can be said of the swift rise of The Donald, who would not have been elected without the evangelicals, but that does not prove that he is a good king or even a good thing, let alone a good god. Mass movements of beliefs are no more than argumentum ad populum writ large. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/175 "2017-03-07T18:20:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Atheist beliefs Are you just pretending to not get it? ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/176 "2017-03-07T18:21:06Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, yes, as this thread has shown, there is a great deal of difference between various Atheist beliefs. I think, honestly it has been of value to discuss and debate this. > > It does show clearly that altho there may not be as many flavors of Atheism as there are of Christianity, there is certainly a wide spectrum. > > I am not really demanding anyone define “_True_ Atheist”. My point was that my Op is no more silly/stupid/logical fallacy than the other OP. I’d rather have a discussion of the many varieties of Atheism than yet another post attacking the basic question. > > Rather than attack the question, participate in the discussion, eh? > > Dont fight the hypothetical. Debate the question. The part you snipped from my post explained why I think the idea of “true” vs “not true” is an invalid question. Asking about people’s ideas and experiences is fine. Trying to force it into “true vs not true” _is different_ for atheism as compared to religions for the points I discussed. And for the reasons I discussed, it can be seen as well poisoning. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/177 "2017-03-07T18:26:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > My point was that my Op is no more silly/stupid/logical fallacy than the other OP. Please see post 169. > [@](#): > > I’d rather have a discussion of the many varieties of Atheism than yet another post attacking the basic question. That’s not the discussion you’re asking for in the OP. There is a difference between discussing the “varieties” of atheism and asking what defines a true atheist. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/178 "2017-03-07T18:28:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=820569) > > “_What exactly defines one as a “True Christian”, and not one in name only?_” > [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. I have said _several_ times that the word “True” was awkward, and never used it again. > 2. Why do you keep bringing that up in _this_ thread? To try to apply it, and all it’s poisonous baggage, to atheists, when in fact the true believer paradigm simply does not apply to atheists. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/179 "2017-03-07T18:28:50Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > The part you snipped from my post explained why I think the idea of “true” vs “not true” is an invalid question. Asking about people’s ideas and experiences is fine. Trying to force it into “true vs not true” _is different_ for atheism as compared to religions for the points I discussed. > > And for the reasons I discussed, it can be seen as well poisoning. Nor have I tried to force it into “true vs not true”. We are discussing the various types and flavors of Atheism, and it is clear that Atheists do not agree. The discussion and debate has been edifying. Yes, one poster likes the difference between “Hard” and “Soft” atheism, and that does make more sense that “True”, I agree. Some would rather fight the hypothetical than participate in the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2017, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222/180 "2017-03-07T18:35:50Z")
My requirements are really very simple: 1. Define the “god” you are presenting evidence for. Give me the parameters, the history, the abilities etc.-everything you’ve got that will help me understand what you are trying to prove. 2. Present verifiable evidence that points towards the particular “god” you are proposing. Even something as vague as “God makes lightning!” means nothing, because so can Zeus, Odin, Thor, and any number of other lightning-flinging deities. You say that your “god” is the source of miracles? Even if they are unverified(as they usually are), the problem is that “gods” have been getting credit for miracles of all sorts since history began-your god isn’t unique…or even rare. Do you know what else isn’t evidence? Questions like "Who do you think created the universe(or rainbows, puppies, frogs etc.)? This isn’t evdence-this is substituting the word “God” for the phrase “I don’t know”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-tell-me-what-defines-a-true-atheist/781222.md?page=10)