So tell me, what defines a True Atheist?

[x-ray_vision]

@DrDeth

Others disagree, and that’s my point.

What point? I asked you that earlier and you didn’t answer. What point are you making that others exist that disagree on a word definition? I already know others disagree. Krondys gave you his definition which made it clear it hinged on one specific thing, and you responded:

Are Buddhists Atheists?

Are Spiritualists Atheists?

You even listed "“Spiritual, but not religious”.

as if you didn’t get it. You have a habit of doing this. Why? What are you trying to accomplish?

You’re mis-characterizing what eburacum45 and Thudlow Boink were responding to. Neither of those quotes was in response to what the definition of atheism is. And the very quote you pasted from marshmallow makes it clear one can believe in silly shit and “technically” be an atheist if one doesn’t believe in God, but I realize it looks more impressive to have a long list of quotes even if they don’t actually back up your claim.

And the end of the first quote from UY Scuti:

“Generally atheism is a denial of God or of the gods, and if religion is defined in terms of belief in spiritual beings, then atheism is the rejection of all religious belief.”

“If” religion is defined that way, then atheism is the rejection of all religious belief. That doesn’t back you up as being different than what I said.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@Kron

As x-ray vision said, it really doesn’t matter what else you believe in- if you don’t believe in any god/s, then you have met the only requirement for being an atheist. One could believe in ghosts and ghouls and UFOs and the afterlife and a multiverse that includes a spiritual plane… but as long as you don’t believe there is a deity that controls all/some of it, then you are an atheist, by definition.

I would find you to be an ODD atheist, no doubt, but you still meet the one and only prerequisite for “atheism”.

@DrDeth

Others disagree, and that’s my point. You may well think so, but it’s hardly settled just by you saying so.
…
Thudlow Boink

Since you quoted me, I’ll go on the record as saying I basically agree with x-ray vision and krondys on this point.

If you want “atheist” to mean someone who rejects everything supernatural or nonphysical, I think you need a different word for that (like maybe “materialist”).

[eschereal]

Really, DrDeth, “atheist” is your word. Most atheists do not go around wearing that silly @ symbol, pronouncing their unbelief, or actively trying to convert others to atheism. Most atheists are just people who are basically indifferent to that religious nonsense and just proceed through life not wanting to be bothered with it. Yes, there are exceptions – the more outspoken types and even a few evangelisticals, and if you want to use your word to label them “true” or “false” atheists, so be it.

(It is your word because it only exists in the presence of religion; where there is no religion or theology, there is no need for “atheism”, because there is nothing to not believe in.)

[DrDeth]

@eschereal

Really, DrDeth, “atheist” is your word. Most atheists do not go around wearing that silly @ symbol, pronouncing their unbelief, or actively trying to convert others to atheism. Most atheists are just people who are basically indifferent to that religious nonsense and just proceed through life not wanting to be bothered with it. Yes, there are exceptions – the more outspoken types and even a few evangelisticals, and if you want to use your word to label them “true” or “false” atheists, so be it.

(It is your word because it only exists in the presence of religion; where there is no religion or theology, there is no need for “atheism”, because there is nothing to not believe in.)

A few do. Some atheists do proselytize.

Unicorns? Ghosts? Spirits? Reincarnation? Afterlife? Esp?

[DrDeth]

@Thudlow_Boink

Since you quoted me, I’ll go on the record as saying I basically agree with x-ray vision and krondys on this point.

If you want “atheist” to mean someone who rejects everything supernatural or nonphysical, I think you need a different word for that (like maybe “materialist”).

Well, yes- everything. But some supernatural things are connected to religion. A Afterlife for example.

[Czarcasm]

@DrDeth

Unicorns? Ghosts? Spirits? Reincarnation? Afterlife? Esp?

Is it “Words that have nothing to do with this subject?”, Alex?

Or are we playing “$100,000 Pyramid”?

[Trinopus]

One might argue that “spirits” (specifically of non-human origin, as opposed to mere ghosts) are “micro-gods.” Little godlets and godlings.

Non-human intelligences with magical powers. Sticky. Are Leprechauns “gods” in any definition?

Either way, I would also be astonished if there are any meaningful numbers of atheists who believe in spirits.

[eschereal]

@DrDeth

A few do. Some atheists do proselytize.

Unicorns? Ghosts? Spirits? Reincarnation? Afterlife? Esp?

Do you fail to understand the part where I said “… there are exception …”? They exist solely because you created them. Without your religion to push back against, they would just be your next-door neighbors (and some of your neighbors probably are but you are unaware of it).

(when I say your religion, I mean in the broadest sense, not anyone’s in particular)

[CarnalK]

@DrDeth

A few do. Some atheists do proselytize.

Unicorns? Ghosts? Spirits? Reincarnation? Afterlife? Esp?

Some Christians believe in ghosts. Does that make it a Christian belief?

I see some are arguing the point but I’ll reiterate that someone who believes in little/lesser magic creatures is not a “true” atheist. They are just a slight hedge off of theists.

[Muffin]

It gets into the realm of consciousness/self-awareness/intelligence/mind and the like. If we could transfer our mind from one brain to another, or from one brain to an artificial brain, or just patterns of electrical connections zip zapping about, then we would have many of the features of today’s woo but still be atheist because of the lack of god(s).

To get into this, you have to look not at the definition of an atheist, but rather the definition of a god.

Gods come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Very often they have eternal life and/or knowledge/power, and when man gets above himself and attempts or attains great life or knowledge/power, the gods chop him off at the knees. Eat the fruit of the tree of life or the tree of knowledge? You’ll get booted out of the garden. Fly too high? You’ll get your wings melted causing you to crash. Get too crafty and trick a god? You’ll be rolling a heavy stone up a hill, over and over and over for eternity.

I submit that that the essence of godhood isn’t incorporeality (which in my opinion does not presently exist, but may someday exist due to technological advances in brain and cognitive biology and AI), but rather is an all too human construct that gives people something that comforts them when they grab onto it (personal belief), and provides a structure for societal organization and social control (note that prophets and religious leaders are very often into power and control over their their followers as many other people as they can, as they go about spreading their ideology as well as their geo-political, social and economic control – e.g. Christianity and Islam with their histories of violent religious conquests both between religions and within religions).

When looking at god(s) this way, you start with gods being artificial constructs created in people’s minds, rather than being real gods that really do exist. It does not matter if a god is ostensibly physical (Aphrodite), or non-physical (Spiritus Sanctus), for either way, the god is only an idea rather than something real.

Therefore as far as atheism goes, it does not matter if at some point we as humans develop the ability to have our minds leave our bodies, for that still does not make us gods or prove that gods exist.

For myself, when a person of faith says they believe in their god, I figure they are into woo and cannot even abductively prove the existence of what they believe in. If an atheist were to come up to me and say they were an atheist and they believe in ghosts, I would figure that they are into woo and cannot even abductively establish the existence of what they believe in. But that does not mean that the woo believing atheist believes in god, for believing in incorporeal beings does not mean believing that these incorporeal beings are gods.

So that brings us back to an atheist being someone who does not believe in god(s), even if that atheist happens to believe in non-corporeal minds and other such silly and unsupportable woo. My guess is that whatever it is in so many people’s brains that results in them being into woo is at the root of why many (most?) people believe in god(s) and even some atheists believe in incorporeal spirits.

TLDR: Deists believe in god(s). Belief in god(s) is belief in woo. Atheists do not believe in god(s). Some atheists believe in incorporeal spirits. Belief in incorporeal spirits is belief in woo. Not all types of belief in woo are belief in god(s).

[Muffin]

I wouldn’t be surprised, however, if most atheists also do not believe in woo, and if whatever in our brains/minds that is at the root of theists believing in god(s) is also at the root of the few atheists who believe in woo.

[Kron]

@Muffin

I wouldn’t be surprised, however, if most atheists also do not believe in woo, and if whatever in our brains/minds that is at the root of theists believing in god(s) is also at the root of the few atheists who believe in woo.

Exactly. As I stated above, if you believe in ghosts/unicorns/etc., but no deities, I would find you to be a strange atheist, but an atheist nonetheless. Humans are infinitely strange, and many (most?) feel the need to believe in SOMETHING bigger than themselves. And if the infinite wonder of the cold, uncaring universe doesn’t fill that need in them, they will search elsewhere- conspiracy theories, ESP, cryptozoology, or other pseudoscience.

Generally, the path to atheism seems to start at rejecting these other forms of unsubstantiated belief, so it would be out of the norm for an atheist to embrace them, but it is not impossible.

[DrDeth]

@CarnalK

Some Christians believe in ghosts. Does that make it a Christian belief?

I see some are arguing the point but I’ll reiterate that someone who believes in little/lesser magic creatures is not a “true” atheist. They are just a slight hedge off of theists.

No, no body claimed that. But is *a belief in the supernatural without solid evidence. *

[DrDeth]

@eschereal

Do you fail to understand the part where I said “… there are exception …”? They exist solely because you created them. Without your religion to push back against, they would just be your next-door neighbors (and some of your neighbors probably are but you are unaware of it).

(when I say your religion, I mean in the broadest sense, not anyone’s in particular)

what are you talking about? I created Unicorns? :dubious:

You post makes no sense.

[CarnalK]

@DrDeth

No, no body claimed that. But is *a belief in the supernatural without solid evidence. *

Sorry I don’t quite understand - nobody claimed what? The only thing I attributed to other posters was “atheists can believe in ghosts” and people certainly said that.

[x-ray_vision]

@DrDeth

No, no body claimed that. But is *a belief in the supernatural without solid evidence. *

Of course it is. So I am assuming you are trying to make a point. What is that point?

what are you talking about? I created Unicorns? :dubious:

You post makes no sense.

Did you freakin’ read the fine print?

[DrDeth]

@CarnalK

Sorry I don’t quite understand - nobody claimed what? The only thing I attributed to other posters was “atheists can believe in ghosts” and people certainly said that.

Your post is right there “Some Christians believe in ghosts. Does that make it a Christian belief?” :rolleyes:

[DrDeth]

@x-ray_vision

Of course it is. So I am assuming you are trying to make a point. What is that point?

Did you freakin’ read the fine print?

Did Religion create the belief in the supernatural? :dubious::dubious:

[CarnalK]

@DrDeth

Your post is right there “Some Christians believe in ghosts. Does that make it a Christian belief?” :rolleyes:

Ok no need to get snippy. It was just a rhetorical question.

[x-ray_vision]

@DrDeth

Your post is right there “Some Christians believe in ghosts. Does that make it a Christian belief?” :rolleyes:

It was a question to you. What about it?

I, and apparently others, aren’t able to determine what the point of your posts are. I’ve even asked you several times, even in bold, and you are ignoring.

Did Religion create the belief in the supernatural? :dubious::dubious:

No. Since he explained “your” doesn’t mean “you” (DrDeth) specifically, neither does the “you” in “because you created them.”