# So, Terr, how is Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions anti-Semitic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629 "2015-06-15T23:02:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/181 "2015-06-18T16:29:53Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > All the usual worn debates about Israel are well and good. Boring by now, but well and good. > > I think that most can at least agree that neither side is The Empire or The Rebel Alliance. I am a patriotic American who objects to many things that my government has done and done and I am a supporter of Israel who has taken issue with actions that Israel has taken. Even the comic books no longer have straight-forward comic book heroes and villains any more, and only few in the real world come close. Neither the broad groups “Palestinian” and “Israel” do even if certain subgroups of each side play each role with some degrees of success. > > I do not label everyone who thinks that Israel is more in the wrong as anti-Semitic. I think they are wrong but that is both different, and by now, again, a very very boring debate. > > Some few however are consciously anti-Semitic and using anti-Zionism as thin cover for ZOG-think, often overlapping the exact same tropes and phrases. They exist in both Right and Left circles. > > Some greater number (“widespread” even) are falling into the same trap that results in biased behaviors within our own culture (not linking but I have also mentioned in the IMHO microaggresions thread). We all possess various stereotypes, have tapes that play, which impact our behaviors and decisions constantly with our conscious thoughts being unawares. > > Many in America have those buried tapes playing about Jews even as they believe they have no anti-Semitic bones in their bodies and that some of their best friends are Jewish!! … “Jews have too much power.” (Be it control of media, banking, whatever.) “Jews are other.” “Jews will put their self-interest over the country’s/have divided loyalties.” “They are clannish.” > > The story line of Israel as the abuser of power and the that they are able to impacted more than others by hitting with what matters to them … money … fits comfortably with those background tapes … biasing to conclusions that the facts do not comport with. > > Again, not everyone who has come to accept that simplistic conclusion has done so out of those innate anti-Semitic beliefs. And those who have will deny it even to themselves. > > Calling it out is useless … pointless … an exercise in futility. > > But statements that there is no anti-Semitism in liberal circles, and that none of the BDS movement is in any way informed by anti-Semitic tropes … are just foolishness. > > Let us double back to what started this off … Diane Rehm’s uncritical acceptance of a claim that Bernie Sander’s has dual citizenship with Israel, telling him that he did, telling him that he was wrong when he told her that he did not and asking him to discuss the others in the Senate who did. (Who in reality don’t.) And the defense that she could not be anti-Semitic because she is a liberal. > > Is Rehm an explicit anti-Semite who would endorse statements like “Jews control the media and banking.” or “American Jews’ loyalty to America is suspect.”? I don’t think so. > > Does she have those tapes playing in her head though, such that it made uncritical acceptance of such false FaceBook memes as fact so easy to do? Oh yes. Liberals have no special immunity to such things. > > The comfort with singling out Israel to a special standard is made possible by those same sorts of processes. I endorse this post. Except for the “Calling it out is useless … pointless … an exercise in futility” part. It is as pointless as any other posting on this board. Or as much on point. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/182 "2015-06-18T16:35:44Z")
Boycotts against Israel are anti-Semitic because they are consistent with the anti-Semitic trope that Jews loves money? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/183 "2015-06-26T18:52:46Z")
[quote=“drad\_dog, post:166, topic:722629”] Who is the rightful owner of land jews bought from Arab landholders? [quote] The Jew that bought the land if they bought it from the rightful owners. > [@](#): > > Who should you blame should such land change hands, and you don’t think jews should be on it? What? > [@](#): > > Who is the owner of land gained in war? Spoils of war? That belongs to the people whom the land was taken. > [@](#): > > Should you boycott countries who helped to incorporate Israel? No, Because they weren’t oppressing Palestinains then and I don’t think it was forseeable that a nation built by people subject to oppression would in oppress others in its turn. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/184 "2015-06-26T18:54:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Yes, some “divided loyalties” won’t matter; others would. Not sure what this point goes to. That divided loyalties exist across the spectrum. It is not something that people only think exists among Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/185 "2015-06-26T18:57:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Perfect/good has nothing to do with it. Fair has only tangential relation to it. The reality is what I am taking about. The Israelis would allow a non-binding arbitrator to smooth negotiations but there is some serious “hard negotiating points” on the Palestinian side that are simply non-starters and they would reject despite how internationally agreed upon it is. So if might makes right in the context of Israel versus Palestine then Israel can hardly complain about global bullying when the rest of the world boycotts them. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2015, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/186 "2015-06-26T18:59:49Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then since the UN has already agreed that Israel does not have to give up all the territory they took when Jordan invaded them then wouldn’t you agree it would be ridiculous for them to have to give up all the territory. > > The UN after all are international arbiters. I think the UN is a fair arbiter. If you’re OK with letting the UN determine the validity of claims and return property where it should be returned and determine fair compensation for property, then so am I. I suspect so would the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/187 "2015-06-28T02:28:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think the UN is a fair arbiter. Then you’re aware the UN has already declared that Israel does not have to withdraw from all of the West Bank, just part of it. Now beyond that, you’ve have indicated that you automatically assume when you find out someone is Jewish that they can’t possibly be sympathetic to the Arab causes and can’t be trusted to be impartial. Now based on that logic shouldn’t it be perfectly fair for the Israelis to insist that only countries without a history of strong anti-Semitism be trusted. By that logic, since the US has historically been the least anti-Semitic country in the World, they could just have the US government be the arbiter? I personally would disagree but if you feel that it’s perfectly acceptable to make such assumptions about Jews shouldn’t it be okay to make such assumptions about other nationalities? > [@](#): > > The Jew that bought the land if they bought it from the rightful owners. “The Jew”? That’s an interesting choice of words? Was it a typo and you meant to type “Jews” or did you type it deliberately? If so it’s really odd since in the many years you’ve been here you’ve had this conversation several times and it’s been explained to you on multiple occasions. The land wasn’t purchased by individuals, but by organizations and they bought it from the legal owners according to Islamic tradition, Ottoman law, and British law when the Palestinian Mandate was run by the British. Sadly enough, virtually none of the Palestinians who fled were landowners. They were overwhelmingly Fellahin. Do you not bother reading people’s responses to you because this has been explained to you on multiple occasions and it doesn’t inspire people to help you when you demand to be educated on a subject(as you’ve done repeatedly) and then display little indication that you listen to what people say. Beyond that, you’re aware the PNC renounced any claim to the West Bank so how could they deemed the “rightful owners”? > [@](#): > > Article 24. This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/188 "2015-06-28T04:05:23Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So Israel is equivalent to apartheid era South Africa. Gotcha. Not equivalent, but when much of the rest of the world was boycotting SA, Israel was happy to sell arms to the apartheid government. Just sayin’. > [@elucidator](#): > > Can confirm, **John Mace** is not a leftist. “Extreme centrist” might be best. No, he sits quite far to the right of me and I’m a centrist. It’s just that the Right these days has shifted that end of the political spectrum so far into the ultraviolet that he _seems_ centrist. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/189 "2015-06-28T04:44:18Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > . . . No, he sits quite far to the right of me and I’m a centrist. It’s just that the Right these days has shifted that end of the political spectrum so far into the ultraviolet that he _seems_ centrist. Walt Kelly, in his comic strip Pogo, was making jokes to that effect, way back in the sixties. The road veers, so what used to be the middle is now off to one side. But if you’re facing the other way, the road has veered the other way, so… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/190 "2015-06-28T15:03:17Z")
I am the original and only Extreme Centrist™ on this board. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/191 "2015-06-29T04:05:46Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Alternatively, you could simply point out where I was mistaken or I misunderstood rather than calling me dishonest. That would be productive and actually further the discussion. Yes, it would be. As would be not jumping to the most antisemitic possible interpretation of his post, that he was saying Israel is equivalent to the Apartheid. All he said was that both situations were not the worst things going on in the world at the time when they happened, and thus focusing on something that isn’t the worst thing ever is not proof of antisemitism. In fact, your interpretation of that post makes your claim, that of seeing antisemitism as a large part of liberal attitudes against Israel, seem far less solid. Because it appears you are looking for the most antisemitic interpretation, instead of practicing the principle of charity. So you’ve no doubt overestimated the amount of antisemitism. I was going to ask for some examples of what you claim is antisemitism, but it seems others have done so. Antisemitism is so completely foreign to me that I thought it was only the realm of lunatic conspiracy theorists before I came to this board, so I am not qualified to judge whether “Assuming Bernie Sanders has dual citizenship” or such is antisemitic. But I do know that it is not reasonable to assume the poster you were responding to was comparing Israel to the Apartheid. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/192 "2015-06-29T04:28:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I posted that it is widespread on the left. I didn’t say anything about the right. The link I gave you, though, does suggest that it is more widespread on the left, since the two groups in which anti-semitism is much more prevalent identify massively with the left. No, it doesn’t. If there is already a disparity amongst the left and right without including those groups, then the adding in the others might actually just level it out. In fact, this is what is suggested if the level of antisemitism of liberal Americans corresponds to the level of antisemitism in all Americans. (Although it could also be the moderates that make up the balance.) All I know right now is that 12% seems really high unless there are some very highly concentrated antisemitic communities, as the concept just seems so foreign here. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/193 "2015-06-29T15:33:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Then you’re aware the UN has already declared that Israel does not have to withdraw from all of the West Bank, just part of it. Sure. Lets see what they do when we give them the power to actually divide things up and administer the right of return. > [@](#): > > Now beyond that, you’ve have indicated that you automatically assume when you find out someone is Jewish that they can’t possibly be sympathetic to the Arab causes and can’t be trusted to be impartial. > > Now based on that logic shouldn’t it be perfectly fair for the Israelis to insist that only countries without a history of strong anti-Semitism be trusted. I never said that a Jew cannot be sympathetic to Palestinians. There are Israelis Jews that are sympathetic to the Palestinian plight and object to the Israeli oppression of Palestine. If you want to change the proposal from “the UN” to some subgroup then its a different proposal, but I’d be OK with just letting the Dalai Lama sort everything out. > [@](#): > > By that logic, since the US has historically been the least anti-Semitic country in the World, they could just have the US government be the arbiter? I personally would disagree but if you feel that it’s perfectly acceptable to make such assumptions about Jews shouldn’t it be okay to make such assumptions about other nationalities? Why do you keep changing the conversation? Are you OK with the UN being the ultimate arbiter or do you want to let Israel pick the referee? > [@](#): > > “The Jew”? > > That’s an interesting choice of words? Was it a typo and you meant to type “Jews” or did you type it deliberately? > > If so it’s really odd since in the many years you’ve been here you’ve had this conversation several times and it’s been explained to you on multiple occasions. The land wasn’t purchased by individuals, but by organizations and they bought it from the legal owners according to Islamic tradition, Ottoman law, and British law when the Palestinian Mandate was run by the British. > > Sadly enough, virtually none of the Palestinians who fled were landowners. They were overwhelmingly Fellahin. > > Do you not bother reading people’s responses to you because this has been explained to you on multiple occasions and it doesn’t inspire people to help you when you demand to be educated on a subject(as you’ve done repeatedly) and then display little indication that you listen to what people say. > > Beyond that, you’re aware the PNC renounced any claim to the West Bank so how could they deemed the “rightful owners”? OMFG, are you KIDDING me? You are making a big deal out of the fact that I used Jew singular rather than Jews plural? We went over this a while ago and you were no more of an expert on ottoman land laws than me. What percentage of modern day Israel are you claiming was purchased? I’m happy to let Israel keep any land it purchased from its rightful owners. If they gave back the rest, I don’t think any reasonable person could support any criticism of Israel for “taking land” if they did that. If the Palestinians were overwhelmingly landless peasants then there shouldn’t be a problem with returning the land that was taken and not purchased from its rightful owners. We keep getting told how little land (if any) was actually taken, so why not just give it back? Do you have a link to where the PNC renounces any claim to the west bank? And how does that renunciation affect individual ownership rights? Was the PNC speaking on behalf of all Palestinians? ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/194 "2015-06-29T16:18:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sure. Lets see what they do when we give them the power to actually divide things up and administer the right of return. > > I never said that a Jew cannot be sympathetic to Palestinians. There are Israelis Jews that are sympathetic to the Palestinian plight and object to the Israeli oppression of Palestine. If you want to change the proposal from “the UN” to some subgroup then its a different proposal, but I’d be OK with just letting the Dalai Lama sort everything out. > > Why do you keep changing the conversation? Are you OK with the UN being the ultimate arbiter or do you want to let Israel pick the referee? > > OMFG, are you KIDDING me? You are making a big deal out of the fact that I used Jew singular rather than Jews plural? We went over this a while ago and you were no more of an expert on ottoman land laws than me. > > What percentage of modern day Israel are you claiming was purchased? I’m happy to let Israel keep any land it purchased from its rightful owners. If they gave back the rest, I don’t think any reasonable person could support any criticism of Israel for “taking land” if they did that. > > If the Palestinians were overwhelmingly landless peasants then there shouldn’t be a problem with returning the land that was taken and not purchased from its rightful owners. We keep getting told how little land (if any) was actually taken, so why not just give it back? > > Do you have a link to where the PNC renounces any claim to the west bank? > > And how does that renunciation affect individual ownership rights? Was the PNC speaking on behalf of all Palestinians? Maybe they should not give the land back because it was gained after: 1. Compromise was refused. (Because Jews are not acceptable on the land) 2. War was declared. 3. War was lost by the initiator. 4. There are strategic reasons why to “give it back” would be dangerous or disastrous. Wasn’t the war fought by huge interests? How do you finance a war as a bedouin? Who are these interests? Are they interested in the actual wellbeing of Arabs in Israel? Have they acted in good faith with these interests? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/195 "2015-06-30T02:55:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I never said that a Jew cannot be sympathetic to Palestinians. Respectfully, you insisted that neither Henry Kissinger nor Madeline Albright could be sympathetic to Arab causes because they were both Jews. You even admitted that you knew nothing about Albright other that she was a US diplomat and you saw that someone on the internet said she was Jewish. Of course Albright was never Jewish, which you eventually admitted, and Henry Kissinger was extremely popular among the State Department’s Arabists and Jimmy Carter courted the support of the ADL and pro-Israel groups by promising to not reappoint Kissinger. Perhaps you no longer believe this and regret making such claims, but you did make such remarks. > [@](#): > > Do you have a link to where the PNC renounces any claim to the west bank? Yes, it was from the original Palestinian National Charter of 1964. > [@](#): > > Article 24. This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields. > [@](#): > > Was the PNC speaking on behalf of all Palestinians? Er…yes the point of the Palestinian National Covenant was that it was supposed to represent the claims and rights of the Palestinian people. Why do you think the PLO was always referred to both by itself and it’s allies as “the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people”? In fact, the Abu Mazen still uses that phrase to this day. The Palestinian National Council is supposed to speak for all the Palestinians all over the World. This has been explained to you before. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/196 "2015-07-01T02:52:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > An [increasing number, now to a majority](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/03/19/berkeley-s-swastika-problem-are-america-s-liberal-colleges-breeding-anti-semitism.html) of college students in the college environment have personally witnessed or experienced anti-semitic actions. : old rolleyes : Can we FINALLY put away the notion that college students have anything worthwhile to say? First, and this should have been done long ago, define “anti-semitic actions.” We may have realistic ideas about what counts, but as we found in the linked college documents in the micro-aggressions threads, some (not all) of what they complain about may be silly, baseless, or imaginary. Which brings us back to this thread, where we ask if any and all complaints about the conduct of Israel are anti-semitic. > [@](#): > > Some however single out Israel. They hold it to a completely different standard than anyone else. > [@elucidator](#): > > Is Israel the more educated, advanced, and civilized of the two main antagonists? Yes. To my mind, that means that the responsibility to be the more humane is theirs. Thus, my admiration for Israel is at the core of my criticism. I expect more, and am sadly and consistently disappointed. This. The West created Israel and invested it with dreams that a nation built on all that was good in Western Civilization could be a shining beacon to guide the rest of the world. Then human beings started acting like our naturally nasty selves, and the dreamers were disappointed. Our hopes were so high that it’s taken a long time for some of us to let go of that dream. We are liberals, with the flawed belief that Man can better himself. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Israel allowing international arbitrators to decide how much land they are to give away is so far off the table as to be a fantasy. Isn’t that how Israel got its start? Perhaps Israel should remember its history and that old adage, “The UN giveth and the UN taketh away.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/197 "2015-07-01T03:28:13Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > The West created Israel “The West” didn’t. Jews did. Great Britain tried for decades to thwart it, US was at best lukewarm and in fact imposed an arms embargo on the fledgeling Israel as it fought for its survival, and Europeans were indifferent. US was not involved in any armistice negotiations and was, in fact, quite wary of Israel, afraid that it would become a client state of the Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/198 "2015-07-01T04:45:15Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > The West created Israel and invested it with dreams that a nation built on all that was good in Western Civilization Utter bullshit. Where’d you hear such ignorant claptrap? The only people who ever say crap like that are Israelis trying to gin up support from gullible western conservatives or those who hate Israel trying to gin up those who are reflexively anti-Western. You’re aware that the vast majority of Jews who founded Israel were from Eastern Europe not anyplace that could be considered “the West” and that most were socialists aren’t you? You’re also aware aren’t you that British officials administering the Palestinian mandate, almost to the man, including Herbert Samuels hated the Zionists with their lack of manners and socialist ways and vastly preferred the Arab notables with their gentlemanly ways. You’re also I assume aware that the Soviet Union voted for the creation of Israel and forced all her various colonies to vote for it and under her watch while the US refused to raise a finger to help the Israelis during the War of Independence, Czechoslovakia supplied Israel with firepower. > [@](#): > > nation built on all that was good in Western Civilization could be a shining beacon to guide the rest of the world. Then human beings started acting like our naturally nasty selves, and the dreamers were disappointed. What the fuck are you talking about? Israel was a racist country from day one which never even pretended to it’s non-Jewish citizens as anything other than at best second class citizens or “dhimmis” and it hasn’t been a democracy in almost 50 years. Someone sold you the Brooklyn Bridge. > [@](#): > > Our hopes were so high that it’s taken a long time for some of us to let go of that dream. No, you just weren’t paying attention and were fed a line of bullshit that you never looked at critically if you believed any of that for two seconds. > [@](#): > > We are liberals, with the flawed belief that Man can better himself. What a load of self-pitying horseshit. I’m a liberal and I never bought any of that bullshit for two seconds. Anyone who believed that crap was willfully blind and being played by people who viewed them with contempt. > [@](#): > > Isn’t that how Israel got its start? Perhaps Israel should remember its history and that old adage, “The UN giveth and the UN taketh away.” No, that’s not how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/199 "2015-07-01T05:03:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Utter bullshit. > > Where’d you hear such ignorant claptrap? The only people who ever say crap like that are Israelis trying to gin up support from gullible western conservatives or those who hate Israel trying to gin up those who are reflexively anti-Western. > > You’re aware that the vast majority of Jews who founded Israel were from Eastern Europe not anyplace that could be considered “the West” and that most were socialists aren’t you? > > You’re also aware aren’t you that British officials administering the Palestinian mandate, almost to the man, including Herbert Samuels hated the Zionists with their lack of manners and socialist ways and vastly preferred the Arab notables with their gentlemanly ways. > > You’re also I assume aware that the Soviet Union voted for the creation of Israel and forced all her various colonies to vote for it and under her watch while the US refused to raise a finger to help the Israelis during the War of Independence, Czechoslovakia supplied Israel with firepower. > > What the fuck are you talking about? Israel was a racist country from day one which never even pretended to it’s non-Jewish citizens as anything other than at best second class citizens or “dhimmis” and it hasn’t been a democracy in almost 50 years. > > Someone sold you the Brooklyn Bridge. > > No, you just weren’t paying attention and were fed a line of bullshit that you never looked at critically if you believed any of that for two seconds. > > What a load of self-pitying horseshit. I’m a liberal and I never bought any of that bullshit for two seconds. Anyone who believed that crap was willfully blind and being played by people who viewed them with contempt. > > No, that’s not how it works. Ok, this was harsher than I intended for which I apologize since your heart is rather clearly in the right place, but I will stand by my statement that most of your claims make very little sense for anyone familiar with the situation. There are certain lies which both sides claims are “truths” for their own reasons that has more to do with manipulating those they view as “useful idiots”(their view not mine). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/200 "2015-07-01T15:34:35Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Respectfully, you insisted that neither Henry Kissinger nor Madeline Albright could be sympathetic to Arab causes because they were both Jews. You even admitted that you knew nothing about Albright other that she was a US diplomat and you saw that someone on the internet said she was Jewish. > > Of course Albright was never Jewish, which you eventually admitted, and Henry Kissinger was extremely popular among the State Department’s Arabists and Jimmy Carter courted the support of the ADL and pro-Israel groups by promising to not reappoint Kissinger. > > Perhaps you no longer believe this and regret making such claims, but you did make such remarks. Where do I say that Madeleine Albright cannot be sympathetic to Jews? You have this habit of taking statements several steps further than what the actual words say. You read stuff between the lines that simply isn’t there. I mistakenly identified Albright as Jewish and “eventually admitted” that I was wrong … one the same day … within a few posts of making the original statement and you think it translates into Albright cannot be sympathetic to Palestinians. This was 4 years ago. Do you really think it is convincing to bring up tangential stuff I said 4 years ago in making your argument? BTW, when did I ever talk about Kissinger in this context? > [@](#): > > Yes, it was from the original Palestinian National Charter of 1964. "Article 24. This Organization does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, on the Gaza Strip or the Himmah Area. Its activities will be on the national popular level in the liberational, organizational, political and financial fields. " Is this what you are talking about? You really think this shows the PNC renouncing any claim to the West Bank on behalf of all Palestinians? So your position is that the PLO, on behalf of all Palestinians around the world have surrendered the West Bank and Gaza to Israel (or are they saying that this land belongs to other arabs?). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629.md?page=11)