# So, Terr, how is Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions anti-Semitic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629 "2015-06-15T23:02:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/21 "2015-06-16T01:24:02Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > As for the ‘singling out Israel’ argument - it’s garbage. Even if I accepted at face value that there would be more benefit to targeting Indonesia with a BDS movement, it doesn’t follow that movements targeting at other problems need to disband until Indonesia fixes whatever Indonesia has to do. “But there are other worse things in the world” is just not an argument. If we’re inspecting the motives of the BDS movement, then it is an argument, and an important one. Suppose we met someone who said they were boycotting certain businesses because of greed or environmental pollution. And suppose we found they were boycotting precisely those businesses owned by Jews, and not any others. And suppose that there were many companies not owned by Jews which clearly were more greedy and polluted more than any company owned by a Jew. And suppose the boycotter offered no explanation for why only Jewish businesses were targeted. Wouldn’t it make sense to suspect that anti-semitism was the real motive? > [@](#): > > But that said, there are rational reasons for a primarily US organization to aim BDS at Israel: they’re actively pursuing a policy of occupation against Palestine, they have a generally close relationship with the US, they’re democratic (at least for Israeli citizens. Occupied Palestinians not included.) Leaders of BDS may very reasonably believe that they have more leverage against Israel than they would against Indonesia. They may also believe that Israeli occupation of Palestine foments hatred against the United States, and endangers US citizens, and therefore it is important to be seen doing something to pressure Israel towards a different policy. None of those beliefs require anti-Semitism. Obvious question: have any of the activists pushing universities and pension funds to boycott Israel actually made this argument? Or is it a post hoc argument intended to justify a flaw that the activists themselves never thought about? Regardless, it’s a weak justification. What exactly is the evidence that left-wing universities and pension funds have extra leverage against Israel? Do they invest particularly large amounts in Israel? (Do they invest in Israel at all?) If not, then what’s the justification for the “more leverage” belief? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/22 "2015-06-16T01:31:33Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So Isael is equivalent to apartheid era South Africa. Gotcha. That is not what I said at all. Try to argue honestly. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/23 "2015-06-16T01:33:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > That is not what I said at all. Try to argue honestly. Thanks. Alternatively, you could simply point out where I was mistaken or I misunderstood rather than calling me dishonest. That would be productive and actually further the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/24 "2015-06-16T01:37:02Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Dseid’s well expressed thoughts could easily have applied to South Africa back during Apartheid. With all the brutal regimes in the world with a minority ruling class why was South Africa singled out? One must wonder about the real motivations … No, it could not have. South Africa was a terrible human rights abuser, arguably the worst on earth, certainly near the worst. Israel is not a terrible human rights abuser, nor ever has been. This fact leaves your argument dead in the water. In fact, Israel has a much better human rights record than its hostile Arab neighbors. Mass murder or torture are routine in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and many other Arab countries. Hamas calls for the extermination of all Jews in its charter. Iran and other Arab nations have supported terrorism against Jews and others all over the world. Surrounded by such despicable specimens of government, Israel has spent decades bending over backwards to achieve peace. Time and again, Israel has negotiated in good faith, only to have the Palestinians or others return their kindness with terrorism. And the left responds by yelling “boycott Israel!” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/25 "2015-06-16T02:02:56Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > Alternatively, you could simply point out where I was mistaken or I misunderstood rather than calling me dishonest. That would be productive and actually further the discussion. I thought you were some kind of intellectual. I have to spell out that I specifically was addressing the premise that it’s suspicious that Israel is singled out? Back during Apartheid,who opined that it was oh so peculiar that South Africa was being singled out? ITR, there was plenty of human rights abusers in the Apartheid era. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/26 "2015-06-16T02:05:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I thought you were some kind of intellectual. I have to spell out that I specifically was addressing the premise that it’s suspicious that Israel is singled out? Back during Apartheid,who opined that it was oh so peculiar that South Africa was being singled out? > > ITR, there was plenty of human rights abusers in the Apartheid era. Try again. Honestly I have no idea what you’re talking about. If that makes me not “some kind of intellectual”, well I’ll muddle through somehow. Well, since I’m dishonest and no intellectual, I’m more than content to move on without you. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/27 "2015-06-16T02:06:50Z")
Would you rather be a Palestinian Arab, or an Iranian Jew? Be honest please. Everything you say here depends on it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/28 "2015-06-16T02:13:04Z")
I’m sure. Please continue with your arguments that I’m sure you’ve memorized years ago and repeat regardless of what the other people say as exhibited with our little exchange. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/29 "2015-06-16T02:15:14Z")
I don’t know about “widespread,” but it’s certainly there. Especially in Europe. But it’s on the right as well. IME that’s where most of the “Jews run the world” CTs go, especially paired with white nationalism. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/30 "2015-06-16T02:27:25Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > ITR, there was plenty of human rights abusers in the Apartheid era. Try again. Uh, what? I agree there were many human rights abusers, but that obvious does nothing to resuscitate your failed argument. I thinks it’s you who needs to try again, and try much harder. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/31 "2015-06-16T02:37:00Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/32 "2015-06-16T02:42:22Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You didn’t even address my poi t What point did I not address? > [@](#): > > Also, South Africa was bad but not even close to the worst. R Says who? By what standard? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/33 "2015-06-16T02:52:33Z")
> [@drad\_dog](#): > > Would you rather be a Palestinian Arab, or an Iranian Jew? > Be honest please. Everything you say here depends on it. If by “Palestinian Arab” you mean a Palestinian living on the West Bank or the Gaza Strip under the occupation and by “Iranian Jew” you mean one of the poor Jews living in Iran who hasn’t been able to get out then I’d say bout suck severely. That said if you told me to pick one I’d go with being an Iranian Jew. They have far more autonomy and face vastly less daily persecution and harassment, are far less likely to live in squalor, have vastly better prospects when it comes to employment and improving their lives and managing to lead a relatively comfortable life. Also, frankly many of the Jewish communities in Iran have been around much longer than many of the Palestinian communities in the Occupied territories and having close knit ties to the community that’s been around for centuries upon centuries isn’t something to sneeze at. Moreover, while the Iranian government is unquestionably anti-Semitic(please none of this "they’re not anti-Semitic they’re anti-Zionist bullshit) and does occasionally do crap like arrest some Jewish intellectuals on trumped up charges of being Israeli spies, for the most part Jews in Iran are more likely to face soft discrimination more similar to the way Christians in Egypt or Syria were treated until very recently as opposed to the way Jews are treated in most Arab countries or the way the Palestinians in the Occupied territories are treated. Now, in fairness I should add if the Jews of Iran were to ever start engaging in widespread violence against the Iranian government comparable what the people rebelling agains the Israeli occupation and existence of Israel were to do, the Iranian government would be vastly, vastly more brutal in their response. Obviously if you were to compare the Arab citizens of Israel to the Jewish citizens of Iran that’s a different story, but if you’re just comparing to Iranian Jews to the Palestinians on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, yes I’d rather be an Iranian Jew. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/34 "2015-06-16T03:22:50Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > … Surrounded by such despicable specimens of government, Israel has spent decades bending over backwards to achieve peace. Time and again, Israel has negotiated in good faith, only to have the Palestinians or others return their kindness with terrorism. > > And the left responds by yelling “boycott Israel!” I am not going to gainsay what you say here, but it strikes me as particularly unmeaningful, because you have steeped it in a pot of vitriol. If you can restate this in way way that is not like a river of venom, maybe it could be addressed with reason. Thing is, as I see it, take away US support and Israel would almost certainly be consumed rather quickly by their hostile neighbors.So, as a US citizen, I kind of feel that if they are receiving support from the US, even if it is just implicit, I would like to feel that their dad, who can beat up your dad, is coming into the fight with justification. Given the way they treat the Palestinian Arabs, which is part of the reason their neighbors are hostile in the first place, I have some misgivings about being supportive. > [@marshmallow](#): > > I don’t know about “widespread,” but it’s certainly there. Especially in Europe. But it’s on the right as well. IME that’s where most of the “Jews run the world” CTs go, especially paired with white nationalism. YMMV. Here, I suspect anti-semites on the left might be tamer than those on the right, as I kind of doubt, from what I know of leftists, that anti-semites on the left would be thinking of violence or genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/35 "2015-06-16T03:37:08Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Spinoff from the Bernie Sanders [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=759012). Starting around post #200, Terr decided to start arguing that anti-Semitism is widespread on the left, and pointed to an article about the Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions movement against Israel as evidence ([http://www.wiesenthal.com/atf/cf/{54d385e6-f1b9-4e9f-8e94-890c3e6dd277}/REPORT\_313.PDF](http://www.wiesenthal.com/atf/cf/%7B54d385e6-f1b9-4e9f-8e94-890c3e6dd277%7D/REPORT_313.PDF)). tomndebb thought this was a tangent too far for the Bernie thread, so: a spinoff. > > Now then, Terr: your move. Is it your opinion that any criticism of the Israeli state is inherently anti-Semitic? No. Read the PDF. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/36 "2015-06-16T03:39:10Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > Saying “Talked about a mind slammed shut” in response to my claim that the equation of all attempts to divest in Israeli companies with anti-Semitism hurts ones credibility seems to suggest that he thinks that BDS == anti-Semitism is a credible claim to make. If not, he’s welcome to clarify. No, the mind slamming shut was your comment of “ **if** the Wiesenthal Center equates all attempts to divest in Israeli companies as anti-Semitic” without actually reading the link. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/37 "2015-06-16T03:39:11Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > I’d need a little more than an article from the Daily Beast to consider that case closed. Even if the number of Jewish students reporting being exposed to incidences of anti-Semitism were increasing, it doesn’t mean that actual incidents are (it could be students being more outspoken, more aware, or simply a broadening scope of what anti-Semitism means to the average Jewish student), nor does it mean that those perpetrating such incidents are ‘leftists.’ > > It seems to be what Terr was specifically claiming in the other thread. If he was merely being inarticulate, he can clarify. But I don’t think it’s accurate to characterize this as a strawman. > > Actually, as belief systems, they are incompatible. However, humans’ ability to simultaneously believe contradictory ideas is well-documented. [The actual data](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/trinityantisemreport.pdf) if you think they made it up. The reference is to the identity of “liberal.” Debating what the identity actually signifies would be another discussion. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/38 "2015-06-16T03:41:31Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > As is often the case with these things, some BDS supporters are motivated by anti-semitism and some aren’t. … > > … I would be curious to know whether the people who accept the self-reported rate of anti-semitism also accept the self-reported rate of racism or sexism. Point the first - of course. Point the second, more pertinent to this thread is whether those who accept self-reported rates of racism or sexism doubt the self-reports of anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/39 "2015-06-16T03:47:29Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Thing is, as I see it, take away US support and Israel would almost certainly be consumed rather quickly by their hostile neighbors. You mean the way they were consumed by their neighbors prior to late 1960s? The US didn’t start giving huge amounts of support to Israel till after the Six Day War. > [@](#): > > **Given the way they treat the Palestinian Arabs,** which is part of the reason their neighbors are hostile in the first place, I have some misgivings about being supportive. Is the bolded part a reference to the Occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip? If so it doesn’t make a tremendous amount of sense. The Arabs were trying to wipe out the Israelis long before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip. In fact the Palestinian political leadership had officially renounced any claim to sovereignty over the West Bank or the Gaza Strip and only did so after Israel beat back Jordan’s invading army in 1967. Frankly, the Arabs didn’t object to Israel’s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but to Israel’s existence, believing the Jews were alien interlopers who had no legitimate claim to the land and shouldn’t have a state of their own on what they viewed as Arab land. > [@](#): > > Here, I suspect anti-semites on the left might be tamer than those on the right, as I kind of doubt, from what I know of leftists, that anti-semites on the left would be thinking of violence or genocide. You mean like Saddam Hussein in Iraq, the Assads in Syria or the PFLP and such groups. Would you consider the massacre of a couple of dozen Jewish schoolchildren at Ma’alot to be an example of “violence”? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/40 "2015-06-16T04:02:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Dseid’s well expressed thoughts could easily have applied to South Africa back during Apartheid. With all the brutal regimes in the world with a minority ruling class why was South Africa singled out? One must wonder about the real motivations … I can hypothesize (accepting for the sake of argument that one honestly believes that Israel is as clear a villain as was the South African regime) … not out of anti-Whitism but out of an identification with our own recent history with Whites and Blacks and class and power. Yes, there was _a reason_ that that cause was elevated in importance over other brutal regimes of the time (and no need to restrict them to those with minority ruling classes): it resonated with themes already extant in many people’s minds. Pretty much the same explanation, that resonating with themes already extant. It’s just that the themes resonating with this one are of a different nature I think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629.md?page=3)