# So, Terr, how is Boycott/Divestment/Sanctions anti-Semitic **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629 "2015-06-15T23:02:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/121 "2015-06-17T01:47:20Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And aren’t the vast majority of those in the refugee camps and cities descandants of those who were originally from pre-1967 Israel? What is the proportion of actual refugees, as opposed to those who were born into refugee status outside of Israel? > > Unless the right of return is heritable, it seems likely to fade away with time by ordinary actuarial processes. What do you mean by “actual refugees”. According to the the UN, all the those in the camps are refugees. Regardless of how many generations removed they are from Israel. And no, there’s little evidence of this tie to their homeland will disappear anytime soon. ---
**Author:** ![drad\_dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@drad\_dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drad_dog)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/122 "2015-06-17T01:51:55Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > English is not Ramira’s fist language and while she and I have butted heads on a couple of occasions I’d hardly fault her for it, particularly since she is usually still able to get across her point. I got that and didnt mean to snark. I am not fully informed about all this and can be confused if things are not grammatical. I wanted to put up a good argument for Israel and see if some truth can come out of it. I think there is more to this story than noble natives and conquering imperialists. The honesty or sincerity of Arabs is not an issue for me that I know of. If there are ingrained prejudices in what I say, I’m here to find out. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/123 "2015-06-17T02:03:32Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What do you mean by “actual refugees”. According to the the UN, all the those in the camps are refugees. Regardless of how many generations removed they are from Israel. > > And no, there’s little evidence of this tie to their homeland will disappear anytime soon. Well, personally, I think that’s really stupid. An “actual” refugee is one who fled when the war happened. Their descendant’s current “real” nationality is certainly not Israeli, and apparently not Jordanian or Egyptian either, so they are stateless, in that there is no country that encompasses the West Bank and Gaza. How long does this heritance last? Are the British citizens who are descended from Huguenot refugees “French refugees” after some six hundred years? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/124 "2015-06-17T03:26:39Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > What do you mean by “actual refugees”. According to the the UN, all the those in the camps are refugees. Regardless of how many generations removed they are from Israel. Yep. Only for Palestinians. For all other refugees, if you’re born outside the country, you’re not a refugee anymore. But hey - the Jooos. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/125 "2015-06-17T04:18:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yep. Only for Palestinians. For all other refugees, if you’re born outside the country, you’re not a refugee anymore. But hey - the Jooos. To be fair to the Palestinians though, part of that is because a lot of the countries the refugee camps are in treat the Palestinians like shit and won’t let them out to assimilate, partly because they don’t want a bunch of new Palestinian immigrants, and partly because they can use those camps as part of a propaganda war against Israel to help distract their people from the failures of their governments. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/126 "2015-06-17T05:49:16Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Well, personally, I think that’s really stupid. An “actual” refugee is one who fled when the war happened. Their descendant’s current “real” nationality is certainly not Israeli, and apparently not Jordanian or Egyptian either, so they are stateless, in that there is no country that encompasses the West Bank and Gaza. > > How long does this heritance last? Are the British citizens who are descended from Huguenot refugees “French refugees” after some six hundred years? It’s the UNRWA that makes such decisions and they’ve decided the descendants of the Nakba are refugees. They have not made such a decision regarding the descendants of French Hugenots. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/127 "2015-06-17T06:17:28Z")
The UNRWA can decide they’re unicorns, too. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with it. (Of course the UNRWA considers them refugees - if it didn’t, the organization would have no justification for its own existence. Thousands of paychecks are on the line.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/128 "2015-06-17T06:22:08Z")
The threat looms, a worldwide shortage of refugees? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/129 "2015-06-17T06:26:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The threat looms, a worldwide shortage of refugees? [UNRWA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNRWA)is responsible solely for treating Palestinian refugees. All other refugees are handled by the [UNHCR](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_High_Commissioner_for_Refugees); they’re obviously less deserving of an organization of their own. Face it, man - you’re out of your depth. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/130 "2015-06-17T06:36:51Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Says who? How about a non-White South African born and raised under Apartheid? Seriously, Apartheid wasn’t _ever_ as bad as, say, Rhodesia at the same time. Or Cultural Revolution China. Or Pol Pot-era Cambodia. Or Biafra. Or Ethiopia. Or Mozambique. Or large chunks of Central America at the same time. > [@](#): > > By what standard? Numbers killed, tortured or forced to flee their country all seem like reasonable standards. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/131 "2015-06-17T14:00:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > And aren’t the vast majority of those in the refugee camps and cities descandants of those who were originally from pre-1967 Israel? What is the proportion of actual refugees, as opposed to those who were born into refugee status outside of Israel? > > Unless the right of return is heritable, it seems likely to fade away with time by ordinary actuarial processes. My understanding is that it is intended to be heritable. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/132 "2015-06-17T14:09:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Some however single out Israel. They hold it to a completely different standard than anyone else. Often they include references not to a “pro-Israel lobby” but to “the Jewish Lobby” and resort to intimations about the real loyalty of Jews. I’m looking for examples of this. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/133 "2015-06-17T14:23:55Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m looking for examples of this. This may help: > **[Jewish lobby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lobby#Viewed_as_antisemitic_and.2For_pejorative)** > > The Jewish lobby are individuals and groups predominantly in the Jewish diaspora that advocate for the interests of Jews and Jewish values. The lobby references the involvement and influence of Jews in politics and the political process, and includes organized groups such as the American Jewish Committee, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, B'nai B'rith, and the Anti-Defamation League. > The term Jewish lobby is often conflated with the term Israel lobby, to which some commentators arg... In sum: Jews and non-Jews alike on occasion use the term “Jewish lobby”. However, what is meant by that term varies with the speaker. When Jews use the term, they tend to mean activism on behalf of an Jews as an ethnic or religious group in a neutral sense: a “Jewish lobby” as an equivalent to a “Catholic lobby” or whatever. Some, however, use the term in a perjorative sense: as a replacement for the “pro-Israel lobby”, tapping into fears of exaggerated Jewish influence (a common anti-semitic trope), and as an accusation of double loyalties. For other examples of terms used in one ethnic community (but best left alone by members of others because of widespread perceptions that they are coded terms for bigotry) see “thug life”. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/134 "2015-06-17T14:57:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > This may help: > > [Jewish lobby - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_lobby#Viewed_as_antisemitic_and.2For_pejorative) > > In sum: Jews and non-Jews alike on occasion use the term “Jewish lobby”. However, what is meant by that term varies with the speaker. When Jews use the term, they tend to mean activism on behalf of an Jews as an ethnic or religious group in a neutral sense: a “Jewish lobby” as an equivalent to a “Catholic lobby” or whatever. Some, however, use the term in a perjorative sense: as a replacement for the “pro-Israel lobby”, tapping into fears of exaggerated Jewish influence (a common anti-semitic trope), and as an accusation of double loyalties. > > For other examples of terms used in one ethnic community (but best left alone by members of others because of widespread perceptions that they are coded terms for bigotry) see “thug life”. Well, I mean, I guess I should have been clear, but yeah of course people use “Jewish lobby” pejoratively. I was more looking for examples of academics disparaging the real loyalty of jews, and of academics holding israel to different standards than other nations. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/135 "2015-06-17T15:36:23Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Well, I mean, I guess I should have been clear, but yeah of course people use “Jewish lobby” pejoratively. I was more looking for examples of academics disparaging the real loyalty of jews, and of academics holding israel to different standards than other nations. But the person you quoted didn’t specify academics. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/136 "2015-06-17T15:41:02Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Well, I mean, I guess I should have been clear, but yeah of course people use “Jewish lobby” pejoratively. I was more looking for examples of academics disparaging the real loyalty of jews, and of academics holding israel to different standards than other nations. I don’t think there is any doubt that Israel is held to different standards than other nations, and that there are academics who support this. After all, is there any other nation subject to such intensive boycotting by academic organizations? Yest Israel is plainly not the worst human-rights abuser in the world. What is in doubt is the motivation for such double standards. For example, in this thread, people have alleged that what motivates such double standards is, in essence, that Israel (being a First-World nation) is more likely to be suceptible to such pressure as lobbying; or that ‘more is expected’ of ‘Jews’ because of the Holocaust. That sort of thing. The “double loyalty” thing is rarely outright stated - except by hardcore old-style anti-semites (just as there are few who expressly state that Blacks are racially inferior these days). It is more a matter of using coded terms - like the “Jewish lobby” used perjoratively where “pro-Israel lobby” would be a better fit. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/137 "2015-06-17T15:51:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The “double loyalty” thing is rarely outright stated - except by hardcore old-style anti-semites. As I pointed to on page 1, Terr himself believes that Jews should be voting based on candidates’ position on Israel. I don’t think he’s the only Jew out there that thinks Israel is more “Important” than the country they live in. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/138 "2015-06-17T15:59:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What is in doubt is the motivation for such double standards. For example, in this thread, people have alleged that what motivates such double standards is, in essence, that Israel (being a First-World nation) is more likely to be suceptible to such pressure as lobbying; or that ‘more is expected’ of ‘Jews’ because of the Holocaust. That sort of thing. If there is a reasonable criterion for separating one target from another then it’s not a double standard. The phrase “double standard” implies the lack of such criterion. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/139 "2015-06-17T16:08:32Z")
These “divestment” programs are pretty weird. they seem to be based upon the idea that somehow, Israel can be harmed by selling your stocks (in firms that do business in or with Israel). In the first place, this probably hurts people who have nothing to do with Israel or its policies. Second, the firms who do business with/in Israel are unlikely to be affected if some shares change hands. Plus, since most stocks are now owned by mutual funds, who really cares about who owns the stocks? It makes about as much sense as people forcing Harvard University to divest itself of oil and coal company stocks-why not force Harvard to sell its share in tobacco companies as well? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629/140 "2015-06-17T16:15:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is typically ‘coded’. To Westerners, Palestinians talk merely about compensation and perhaps a theoretical right for some limited number of Palestinians to ‘return’ (after all, Palestinains also want their own state, and how does having one’s own state ‘mesh’ with also having a ‘right to return’ to a totally different state?); however, among Palestinians, the ‘right of return’ means a literal ‘return’ to the time before “the disaster” in 1948. > > [Palestinian right of return - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_return) > > An example to demonstrate the point: when Abbas publicly stated in 2012 that he was willing to admit that a “right of return” may not of necessity be a “return” of the very hometown which he left, but merely some compensation, he was met with a shit-storm of controversy - and recanted by stating this was only his private opinion and wasn’t any comment on Palestinian rights. > > From the source: > > [Abbas: No Right Of Hometown Return](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2012/11/mil-121102-rferl01.htm) > > Hamas is the party that is in line with typical Palestinian asperations on this, not Abbas (and in fact, he was forced to recant, humiliatingly). > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/world/middleeast/in-palestine-abbas-spurs-right-of-return-uproar.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/world/middleeast/in-palestine-abbas-spurs-right-of-return-uproar.html?_r=0) > > It is clear that when Palestinians talk about the “right of return”, they typically want it to mean a “return” _of_ Palestine to the pre-1948 borders (whether through demographics or otherwise) - any hint that their leaders are veering away from that interpretation is met with massive protests. Abbas made the mistake of publicly giving a version of the Western ‘liberal’ interpretation of that “right of return” (that is, that it means effectively compensation and not a literal ‘return’ to pre-1948, in which he would, literally, take up his family’s prior abode) - which is exactly why he set off mass protests. Oh I see what you are saying. I don’t equate having Palestinian return to what is now Israel with the “destruction of Israel” It may change Israel’s character as a Jewish state (bordering on theocracy these days). The right of return should give Palestinians a choice between monetary compensation or the right to reclaim land that was confiscated from them. I keep hearing how Israel didn’t steal/confiscate land from the Palestinians so I assume that there will be very little displacement resulting from return of land to Palestinians. If Israel did in fact steal/confiscate significant amounts of Palestinian land then we have an entirely different discussion. We can have international arbitrators determine who is entitled to what land and offer a choice between reasonable compensation for the land or the return of the land itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-terr-how-is-boycott-divestment-sanctions-anti-semitic/722629.md?page=8)