# So that happened... Whedon's “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments” **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 12, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735 "2021-02-12T08:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/182 "2021-02-26T01:56:44Z")
But if some of the people you abused, you abused in a sexist way, you are still a sexist. All of this tends to go hand in hand with generally domineering assholes, though. Some people just want to exert power over others and see women (or young people, etc) as easy targets. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/183 "2021-02-26T03:27:30Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > JK Rowling proves that even with a single artist working basically alone (modulo editors), we can have the contradiction of someone whose work seems to be progressive and diverse in many ways; but who in their personal beliefs seems to fall quite short of that ideal. At the risk of a tangent, a novel in which the good guys practice slavery, in which abolitionism is mocked (because the slaves are happy with their impoverished slavery), in which prisons are run by demons who torture inmates forever, and in which smart girls are roundly mocked by everyone because they’re not as cool as the boy who inherits his position, isn’t exactly brimming over with progressive ideas. Rowling’s progressivism is, IMO, wildly overstated. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/184 "2021-02-26T03:47:19Z")
There is an old racist explainer that goes something like: Southerners hate the Black race, but love individual Black people (my gardener is so great, my cook is the best, and they know their place!). The Northerners love the Black race, but hate individual Black people (the way Blacks are treated in the south is just awful; I think the janitor is stealing, and he’s lazy!). I I can’t help but think about Whedon in similar terms. He can genuinely champion Women, and make them the heroes and stars of his stories when most of Hollywood wouldn’t do that. He just doesn’t have any respect for _those_ women that he works with or happens to be married to. “I’m doing important work here telling stories about Women, why did you have to go and get pregnant and mess it all up?” ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/185 "2021-02-26T10:13:47Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Rowling’s progressivism is, IMO, wildly overstated. I think a better example is Orson Scott Card, whose Ender books regularly explore questions of empathy and cultural perspective with great insight and sensitivity, while he himself is an asshole and a raving bigot. But this is probably a hijack for another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/186 "2021-02-26T10:33:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > At the risk of a tangent I’ll allow it. Also, you can’t use magic to help the poor in her world which is not very nice. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/187 "2021-02-26T11:12:54Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Also, you can’t use magic to help the poor in her world which is not very nice. You find that magically suspicious…? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/188 "2021-02-26T11:56:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > in which smart girls are roundly mocked by everyone because they’re not as cool as the boy who inherits his position You’re not wrong… [![](https://i.redd.it/vq1hpy0nlkv51.jpg) ](https://i.redd.it/vq1hpy0nlkv51.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/189 "2021-02-26T13:16:25Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > can’t help but think about Whedon in similar terms. He can genuinely champion Women, and make them the heroes and stars of his stories when most of Hollywood wouldn’t do that. He just doesn’t have any respect for _those_ women that he works with or happens to be married to. “I’m doing important work here telling stories about Women, why did you have to go and get pregnant and mess it all up?” Right. It’s like how we spend so much time arguing over whether someone _is_ a racist. I don’t think it’s useful to try to label someone as a racist or a sexist. Let’s look at and label the acts. Pregnancy discrimination is part of institutional sexism. Once that is established we don’t really have to know for sure whether the perpetrator as a matter of personal identity is a sexist. People can be complex. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/190 "2021-02-26T15:08:21Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Rowling’s progressivism is, IMO, wildly overstated. True that - or as others on the 'net have said “Harry Potter is a trust fund jock who became a government enforcer.” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/191 "2021-02-26T15:14:37Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > True that - or as others on the 'net have said “Harry Potter is a trust fund jock who became a government enforcer.” Ouch, but fair. It occurs to me that he’s like what if Batman had a wand. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/192 "2021-02-26T19:30:30Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It occurs to me that he’s like what if Batman had a wand. Only untalented children should live under the stairs of a fat person. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/193 "2021-02-26T19:33:10Z")
Huh. Trying to think. The Dursleys, Cornelius Fudge, Dolores Umbridge…does Rowling have any fat characters that are _not_ contemptible? I guess there’s Longbottom, but he’s pitiful, or at least he is until he grows up and gets handsome. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/194 "2021-02-26T19:34:42Z")
Did Dahl? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/195 "2021-02-26T19:36:45Z")
Man, Dahl is his whole other bundle of problematic shit. Children’s lit is full of folks who write delightful, charming, witty books with absolutely poisonous underlying ideologies. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/196 "2021-02-26T19:38:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It occurs to me that he’s like what if Batman had a wand. I don’t quite know how a thread on Joss Whedon’s “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments” became a thread on Harry Potter being terrible, but I’ll throw in my two Knuts worth… Batman, at least, in most depictions spent years if not decades honing himself into the ultimate crimefighter, and is utterly committed to that calling, to the degree that modern depictions often point out is emotionally unhealthy. Harry Potter, on the other hand, doesn’t actually seem to really _do_ anything. Caveat: I only know the movies; maybe he’s more proactive in the books. As parodied upthread, Hermione seems more like the actual protagonist of the stories than Harry does. That’s one of the main reasons I didn’t really like the movies. Harry’s just kind of…there. He’s the Boy Who Lived. That’s literally it. He survived, and continues to survive all sorts of danger, mostly through no particular effort or talent on his part. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/197 "2021-02-26T19:40:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Huh. Trying to think. The Dursleys, Cornelius Fudge, Dolores Umbridge…does Rowling have any fat characters that are _not_ contemptible? Can we count Hagrid? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/198 "2021-02-26T19:47:14Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > I don’t quite know how a thread on Joss Whedon’s “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments” became a thread on Harry Potter being terrible, but I’ll throw in my two Knuts worth… > > Batman, at least, in most depictions spent years if not decades honing himself into the ultimate crimefighter, and is utterly committed to that calling, to the degree that modern depictions often point out is emotionally unhealthy. > > Harry Potter, on the other hand, doesn’t actually seem to really _do_ anything. Caveat: I only know the movies; maybe he’s more proactive in the books. As parodied upthread, Hermione seems more like the actual protagonist of the stories than Harry does. That’s one of the main reasons I didn’t really like the movies. Harry’s just kind of…there. He’s the Boy Who Lived. That’s literally it. He survived, and continues to survive all sorts of danger, mostly through no particular effort or talent on his part. There are definite differences. But if I told you about a boy who was orphaned at a young age by a villain who (if you believe Tim Burton) would go on to become his archnemesis, and this boy inherited great wealth from his parents and as he grew up he used that wealth, along with the help of a kindly older man and two sidekicks (one male, one female), to fight shadowy criminals, often despite an incompetent or corrupt government, you’d have to ask me to be more specific. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/199 "2021-02-26T19:47:46Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Can we count Hagrid? Hagrid’s half-giant. He’s enormous but not IIRC fat. Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/200 "2021-02-26T19:52:46Z")
I’ve never read the books, but he’s definitely fat - as well as enormously tall - in the films. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2021, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/201 "2021-02-26T19:56:15Z")
Hmm. Apparently he’s described as " almost twice as tall as a normal man and at least five times as wide." My impression of him had always been that he was substantial, but that it was giantish substance, muscle rather than fat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=11)