# So that happened... Whedon's “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments” **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 12, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735 "2021-02-12T08:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2021, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/263 "2021-02-27T23:31:54Z")
No, it is the difference between Rape and Battery. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/264 "2021-02-28T15:14:01Z")
Also from that article: > “‘Casually cruel’ is a perfect way of describing Joss,” Jose Molina, who was a writer on Whedon’s short-lived, much-loved sci-fi series “Firefly” in 2002 and 2003, [posted](https://twitter.com/JoseMolinaTV/status/1360386433769295873) on Twitter on Feb. 12. “He thought being mean was funny. Making female writers cry during a notes session was especially hysterical. He actually liked to boast about the time he made one writer cry twice in one meeting.” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/265 "2021-02-28T20:39:17Z")
A post was split to a new topic: [Manwich sock post](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/manwich-sock-post/933975) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2021, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/266 "2021-02-28T23:52:08Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I think [pregnancy harassment](https://www.hrc.co.nz/files/5714/3769/9439/12-Jun-2005_20-16-44_Pregnancy.pdf) is about a clear example of workplace sexual harassment that you can get. But as I said: this isn’t about some rigid interpretation of what is and isn’t sexual harassment. It’s not. At least not in the United States. Sexual harassment is defined as “unwanted sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature.” Making jokes about pregnancy can be a form of harassment, it’s just not sexual harassment as defined by the EEOC. The Pregnancy Discrimination Act was passed here in the U.S. in 1978 making it clear that discrimination based on pregnancy was a form of sex discrimination and covered under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/267 "2021-03-01T00:27:50Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’ve already cited a lot of what happened behind the scenes. Snyder thinks that Whedon rewrote and reshot about three quarters of the film that ended up onscreen. The theatrical release was Whedon’s film. That’s goofy. Snyder wrote and directed a terrible soulless movie, just like every single other movie in the DC universe he got his hands on. You can’t just come in when 90% of the movie is shot and fix that. Snyder is the reason we got a Superman whose dad had the brilliant moral advice, “Maybe let a busload of innocent children die so you can keep your secret.” He doesn’t get comics. He thinks that a series of slow motion bad-ass scenes is what a movie is. The fact that he’s gotten a billion dollars to make films is absurd. Edit: changed some inflammatory text ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/268 "2021-03-01T00:45:13Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It’s not. At least not in the United States. …well I’m not in the United States. And neither was my cite. Me Too has no borders, and you don’t get to arbitrarily decide what is and isn’t #metoo on the basis of American centric legislation. This isn’t a legal discussion. As I’ve said a couple of times this isn’t about some **rigid interpretation** of what is and isn’t sexual harassment. That misses the point. > [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s utter horseshit. Snyder wrote and directed a terrible soulless movie, just like every single other movie in the DC universe he got his hands on. You can’t just come in when 90% of the movie is shot and fix that. We don’t know what movie Snyder wrote and directed because we haven’t seen that movie yet. I agree that (IMHO) Snyder writes terrible and soulless movies. I’ve said that I hate his movies over and over and over and over again here. But more than enough information has come out about the production that matches up with the Snyder interview. Snyder may have the exact percentages wrong, but there were substantial rewrites and reshoots even while Snyder was still with the production. None of this is in dispute. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Snyder is the reason we got a Superman whose dad had the brilliant moral advice, “Maybe let a busload of innocent children die so you can keep your secret.” He doesn’t get comics. He thinks that a series of slow motion bad-ass scenes is what a movie is. The fact that he’s gotten a billion dollars to make films is absurd. Not liking Snyder movies doesn’t change what happened behind the scenes. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/269 "2021-03-01T01:47:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …well I’m not in the United States. And neither was my cite. Me Too has no borders, and you don’t get to arbitrarily decide what is and isn’t #metoo on the basis of American centric legislation. This isn’t a legal discussion. As I’ve said a couple of times this isn’t about some **rigid interpretation** of what is and isn’t sexual harassment. That misses the point. That’s fine and I don’t mean to be a pedantic jerk here. But in the interest of supporting the board’s mission of fighting ignorance, I just wanted to point out that harassing someone for their pregnancy isn’t legally considered sexual harassment in the jurisdiction where Whedon’s behavior took place. I agree a rigid interpretation is unnecessary for the purposes of the discussion here. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/270 "2021-03-01T01:54:13Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > That’s fine and I don’t mean to be a pedantic jerk here. But in the interest of supporting the board’s mission of fighting ignorance, I just wanted to point out that harassing someone for their pregnancy isn’t legally considered sexual harassment in the jurisdiction where Whedon’s behavior took place. I agree a rigid interpretation is unnecessary for the purposes of the discussion here. …we are talking about #metoo. In the interests of fighting ignorance the jurisdiction where Whedon’s behavior took place has absolutely no bearing on a hashtag commonly shared on twitter dot com. I just wanted to point out that harassing someone for their pregnancy is a pretty shit thing to do regardless of its legal status, and if somebody wants to share that with the world in the hope that it makes even one person less afraid to come forward with their story then all power to them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/271 "2021-03-01T02:06:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …you don’t get to arbitrarily decide what is and isn’t #metoo on the basis of American centric legislation… But I do get to decide based upon _your very own cite and definition._ _The Me Too (or #MeToo) movement, …is a social movement against sexual abuse and sexual harassment where people publicize allegations of sex crimes.”_ I didnt post that, you did. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/272 "2021-03-01T02:13:23Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But I do get to decide based upon _your very own cite and definition._ _The Me Too (or #MeToo) movement, …is a social movement against sexual abuse and sexual harassment where people publicize allegations of sex crimes.”_ > > I didnt post that, you did. …its a freaking wikipedia page for fucks sakes. Its not definitive. You can edit it yourself if you like. Do you really think the movement is supposed to be defined by a dictionary definition? What are you even arguing about now? The American definition of what is and isn’t sexual harassment? There are a million things you can quibble about. But quibbling about the shared life experiences of thousands of people doesn’t seem like one of them to me. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/273 "2021-03-01T02:21:02Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In the interests of fighting ignorance the jurisdiction where Whedon’s behavior took place has absolutely no bearing on a hashtag commonly shared on twitter dot com. I just wanted to point out that harassing someone for their pregnancy is a pretty shit thing to do regardless of its legal status, and if somebody wants to share that with the world in the hope that it makes even one person less afraid to come forward with their story then all power to them. I’m in agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/274 "2021-03-01T02:43:01Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > It’s not. At least not in the United States. Sexual harassment is defined as “unwanted sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature.” Making jokes about pregnancy can be a form of harassment, it’s just not sexual harassment as defined by the EEOC. You left out some stuff [there](https://www.eeoc.gov/sexual-harassment): “Harassment **can include** “sexual harassment” or unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.” Emphasis added. “Harassment does not have to be of a sexual nature, however, and can include offensive remarks about a person’s sex. For example, it is illegal to harass a woman by making offensive comments about women in general.” As you noted, Title VII has been amended to include pregnancy specifically. Since Title VII is the law that authorizes the EEOC, I think we can safely say that the EEOC considers ridiculing a woman about her pregnancy as a form of sexual harassment. [To wit](https://www.eeoc.gov/statutes/title-vii-civil-rights-act-1964): “(k) The terms “because of sex” or “on the basis of sex” include, but are not limited to, because of or on the basis of pregnancy, childbirth, or related medical conditions” So wherever you see “because of sex” or “on the basis of sex”, it’s sexual discrimination and/or harassment. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/275 "2021-03-01T03:11:14Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > You left out some stuff [there](https://www.eeoc.gov/sexual-harassment): You are absolutely right. Pregnant harassment _is_ sexual harassment. Thanks for fixing my mistake and my apologies for derailing the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/276 "2021-03-01T03:22:00Z")
I had the advantage of just having completed my annual renewal training. This was covered in some depth which led to speculation about how did what to who that it was felt we all needed the emphasized reminder. 🙂 But I think we both agree that whatever it is legally, it’s icky (technical term) and shouldn’t be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/277 "2021-03-01T09:28:09Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > . I’ve said that I hate his movies over and over and over and over again here. …I just watched “Zack Snyder’s Justice League: The Mother Box Origins” on youtube and: I’m really glad that Snyder got the opportunity to finish his movie. I believe he got screwed over by the higher ups at the studio, and I think he’s a genuinely nice guy. He deserves it. But this just looks insufferable. 🤣 😂 😁 [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/VtoaayKwd8w/maxresdefault.jpg "Zack Snyder's Justice League: The Mother Box Origins - Official Exclusive Clip | IGN Fan Fest 2021") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtoaayKwd8w) In my humble opinion of course 😃 Its a four hour movie. Good gosh. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/278 "2021-03-01T17:04:28Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I just watched “Zack Snyder’s Justice League: The Mother Box Origins” on youtube and: I’m really glad that Snyder got the opportunity to finish his movie. I believe he got screwed over by the higher ups at the studio, and I think he’s a genuinely nice guy. He deserves it. He’s a nice guy who clearly really, really loves superheroes, despite being really, really bad at telling superhero stories. He’s basically the cinematic Rob Liefeld, isn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/279 "2021-03-01T18:20:06Z")
Rob Liefeld is a far better comic artist and writer than Snyder is as comic director and writer. Which isn’t to say Liefeld is good. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/280 "2021-03-01T18:21:28Z")
On the other hand, Zack Snyder’s superheroes have feet. There’s pluses and minuses on both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/281 "2021-03-01T18:25:58Z")
He’s getting better. Only took 30 years. [[Album] Superman, with feets! ![](https://i.imgur.com/2TqPUaM.jpeg?fb "Superman, with feets!") ](https://imgur.com/a/OoqIuVG) ---
**Author:** ![Enjoy\_Slurm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enjoy_slurm/32/3937_2.png) [@Enjoy\_Slurm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enjoy_Slurm)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2021, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/282 "2021-03-02T00:51:35Z")
[nerd-on] That is not the origins of the Motherboxes. [nerd-off] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=15)