# So that happened... Whedon's “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments” **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 12, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735 "2021-02-12T08:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/323 "2021-04-08T13:47:18Z")
Yes, that’s my read too. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/324 "2021-04-08T14:13:38Z")
Of the three “charges” mentioned, only the second one pings my “Joss is an asshole” meter. The third one wasn’t Joss, and Ray deserved every bit of the first one. _He’s_ the asshole there. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/325 "2021-04-08T15:04:46Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The third one wasn’t Joss, and Ray deserved every bit of the first one. _He’s_ the asshole there. I don’t think this indicates his being an asshole at all. The article goes into extensive detail about how he developed the character with Snyder, with a lot of care for Cyborg’s being the first black superhero in a DCEU film, and a care for representation and the views of the black community. He noted that no other character was being given a catchphrase. He was right to discuss the effect of the impression that this created on the portrayal in the same way Gal Gadot was right to discuss it. Gal Gadot went over Whedon’s head and got it resolved. Fisher tried and failed. But in the end, he was right, and Whedon was wrong. The movie was way worse for Whedon’s tampering than it would have been. But Whedon got his way and chose to exercise it in an obnoxious manner with a quote from _Hamlet_, the self-important prick. Fisher was justified in cutting him off. The situation with Geoff Johns is a little more ambiguous, but Warner eventually decided to cut ties with him too. Fisher’s current beef is with Hamada, whom he saw as trying to protect Johns while throwing others under the bus, and the shady way the investigation was conducted (in his view). ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/326 "2021-04-08T15:10:41Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > None of this says that it is the entirety of what happened–they’re just examples. And none are merely a director forcing someone to read their lines. Yep, both of these things. There’s enough in public statements now about Whedon from multiple sources–from multiple shows and movies–to establish that Whedon was abusive to actors in multiple ways. This is the kind of guy who should not be allowed to have authority over other people. He spent most of his early career as a script doctor, and apparently a reasonably successful one–let him go back to that. But directing actors–no actor should have to put up with mockery, threats, and abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/327 "2021-04-08T15:21:39Z")
I think that Geoff Johns deserves more than a little blame for how the whole shit show has played out. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/328 "2021-04-08T15:23:10Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > He spent most of his early career as a script doctor, and apparently a reasonably successful one–let him go back to that. But directing actors–no actor should have to put up with mockery, threats, and abuse. But what he apparently is good at is what his actors were arguing with him about. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/329 "2021-04-08T15:49:17Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Yep, both of these things. There’s enough in public statements now about Whedon from multiple sources–from multiple shows and movies–to establish that Whedon was abusive to actors in multiple ways. This is the kind of guy who should not be allowed to have authority over other people. He spent most of his early career as a script doctor, and apparently a reasonably successful one–let him go back to that. But directing actors–no actor should have to put up with mockery, threats, and abuse. If every one who is an asshole had to leave the entertainment business, there wouldn’t be a lot of people left. Whedon seems like just an average asshole by Hollywood standards. What’s hurting him is hypocrisy; he always pushed a public image of himself as a nice guy and we’ve now found out this isn’t true. If David Russell and James Cameron still have careers, there’s no reason to kick Joss Whedon out. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/330 "2021-04-08T17:09:29Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > …There’s enough in public statements now about Whedon from multiple sources–from multiple shows and movies–to establish that Whedon was abusive to actors in multiple ways. This is the kind of guy who should not be allowed to have authority over other people. … Man, people are so damned fragile. Plenty of bosses are jerks. In a perfect world, they wouldn’t be. But characterizations of “abuse” get bandied about pretty freely. None of these come anywhere near the previous example of objecting to an actor’s pregnancy. Or is it that these precious, sensitive auteurs must be handled so carefully? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/331 "2021-04-08T18:17:33Z")
It’s not that he’s an ordinary jerk. It’s that he made a Black actor do a _Stepin Fetchit_ line reading, and mocked him for it both before and after. Superman doesn’t say “Up, up and away” , Wonder Woman doesn’t utter " Suffering Sappho!". Only the young Black guy has to say the cheesy cartoon catchphrase, over his objections. Whedon’s calling out “Nice work, Ray.”. He’s _saying_ "Nice work. _Boy_.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/332 "2021-04-08T20:22:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If every one who is an asshole had to leave the entertainment business, there wouldn’t be a lot of people left. There are plenty of talented people who can fill supervisory positions who aren’t assholes. These assholes aren’t possessed of some divine gift. Tens of thousands, perhaps more, stand by to fill gaps in entertainment business opportunities. The other thing that can happen is that organizations will be more diligent in policing and punishing abusive behavior, so the assholes will learn to curb themselves if they want to keep their jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/333 "2021-04-08T21:13:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Whedon’s calling out “Nice work, Ray.”. He’s _saying_ "Nice work. _Boy_ .” Well, you’re _hearing_ that; he’s not actually saying that. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/334 "2021-04-08T21:16:18Z")
> [@Staggerlee](#): > > Well, you’re _hearing_ that; he’s not actually saying that. Oh, right, because only literal words carry any abusive meaning. How do you know he’s not “actually” saying that? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/335 "2021-04-08T21:57:32Z")
How do you know I’m not saying “What a ridiculous statement!” Get real here. You can imply all you want. But until you can prove it, it’s BS. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/336 "2021-04-08T22:03:43Z")
You’re right. Best to assume Whedon was living out his plantation fantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/337 "2021-04-08T22:33:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It’s not that he’s an ordinary jerk. It’s that he made a Black actor do a _Stepin Fetchit_ line reading, and mocked him for it both before and after. “Booyah” is a Stepin Fetchit line? I’m not sure I ever heard it in any context other than the marines. Please explain the inherent racism. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2021, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/338 "2021-04-08T23:33:47Z")
The “Mad Money” guy did it a lot. I suspect that it’s not the particular phrase so much as a white director told a black actor what to do. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/339 "2021-04-09T00:13:11Z")
Telling an actor what to do is a director’s job. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/340 "2021-04-09T00:24:44Z")
The racism isn’t in the catchphrase itself. ‘Boo yah’ is black slang from like 1992. Clearly introduced to the cartoon by someone very out of touch and likely not black. The objection was that no authentic young black person in 2017 is saying this. The response was ‘we don’t care about authentic representation. Say the word to make these white people happy.’ It’s not cross-burning or N-words. But seldom is racism so overt or even intentional anymore. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/341 "2021-04-09T00:29:40Z")
I always that it was oorah, not booyah. But I’m not a marine. Any former gunnies here? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/342 "2021-04-09T00:44:18Z")
> [@planetcory](#): > > ‘Boo yah’ is black slang from like 1992. Clearly introduced to the cartoon by someone very out of touch and likely not black. [Well Khary Payton didn’t write it, but he seems to have embraced it.](https://www.dcuniverseinfinite.com/news/teen-titans-khary-payton-birth-cyborgs-booyah/) Of course he is almost 50 so his frame of reference might be rather different. I haven’t watched the original and I’ve only caught a couple of episodes of the newer show. But it seems to be aimed at younger kids and to be very comedic and not-serious. If the producers were insisting on it in a Snyderesque dead serious film so they could tie it to the cartoon audience, I could see me pushing back as well. And I’m a whiter shade of pale 😉. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=18)