# So that happened... Whedon's “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments” **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 12, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735 "2021-02-12T08:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/403 "2021-04-09T20:45:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m not sure I follow, as actors specifically sign up for the purpose of being objectified. It’s 2021. Times have changed. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > And yes, as an employee, sometimes you will be condescended to, I’m sorry you have had to work for shitty bosses. I would quit if I were unlucky enough to work for a boss who thought he could condescend to me the way Whedon did to Fisher or Gadot. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I was not aware that Gadot was asked to have a nude scene in Justice League. Did I say she did? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I assume you brought that up as it was relevant, right? Relevant to _your_ assinine idea that misogyny in Hollywood _only_ consists of asking for sex. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yes, you responded by implying that she was only known for that because she wouldn’t sleep with her boss. You compared that to Weinstein. Weinstein was the impetus for #MeToo becoming a well-known phenomenon, that’s why I mentioned him. Doesn’t mean it was only about sexual assaults. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, you are making that as an assertion, rather than making an argument for the case. The argument was already made, and won, with Charisma Carpenter’s pregnancy. Whedon is a sexist dick, posing as a female ally. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Yeah, it is, isn’t it. But you and I aren’t talking about the same people here. Clearly. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You avoided the question last time I didn’t think it was worth answering. I still don’t, since I don’t think you can be _seriously_ wondering if there’s a difference between a kid’s cartoon and a movie. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You said it was extremely popular, did you not? Why would they not want to tap into some of that popularity? So which is it? _Is_ Cyborg unknown, _or_ popular enough that his cartoon catchphrase has to be included? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You are trying to have it both ways here. Projecting… > [@k9bfriender](#): > > There are a number of cartoons that are either targeted for adults, or at least are designed to be enjoyed by adults, even if targeted at children. Are you sure that they are just kid’s shows? CN explicitly considers them kid’s shows - in fact, TT was pushed _[specifically](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teen_Titans_(TV_series)#Critical_reception)_ because “the six and seven and eight-year-olds were not gelling with the _Justice League_ and some of the more of the fanboy shows”, but plenty of adults enjoy them, too (or at least watch them when their kids do). But they are not adult shows. They are silly (_TTG_ much more so than _TT_). > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You know who wasn’t? Cyborg. Because he was a Teen Titan at the time, not in the JL. Big whoop. You know what series overlapped with the JL animated one on CN? The _Teen Titans_. > [@Miller](#): > > You mentioned two, but neither have been used in any interpretations of those characters in more than fifty years. Sure, but what does that matter? The audience _craves_ catchphrases. Apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/404 "2021-04-09T21:23:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Just about every Big Star in Hollywood, with a small handful of exceptions- have been considered “difficult to work with”. The stars of Justice League are no exception, male or female. …this isn’t in disagreement with anything I said. Whether someone actually **was** difficult to work with or not is an entirely different story. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Here is one list of the Top 20. About half are male, half female. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Here are some more lists I’m sorry, but did you just cite a bunch of gossip-clickbait listicles? You do know how much of a bad reputation, especially Screenrant, have for posting utter nonsense? Just read what they have to say about Sharon Stone for goodness sakes. > [@Screenrant](#): > > but one of the big reasons a sequel to _Basic Instinct_ took so long to get off the ground, was because Stone had disputes with studio execs with regards to its sexual content. But when you read about what actually happened behind the scenes in the first one, on how she was betrayed by the director in one of the most iconic scenes in the film, do you blame her? > **[“You Can’t Shame Me”: Sharon Stone on How Basic Instinct Nearly Broke Her,...](https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/03/sharon-stone-on-how-basic-instinct-nearly-broke-her)** > > In an exclusive excerpt from her memoir, Stone writes about predatory directors, being a “difficult” woman in Hollywood, and her most iconic role: “It’s about more than just a peek up my skirt, people.” Those lists are meaningless drivel. Gossip. The exact thing I was talking about. > [@DrDeth](#): > > You seem to be claiming that the females on this list are really all angels, but just refused to sleep with the bosses. You are literally responding to a post where I wrote: > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …not just for “not sleeping with the producer or director.” > > In a lot of cases simply speaking up for themselves. The examples are countless. How on earth would you think I was claiming “that the females on this list are really all angels, but just refused to sleep with the bosses”? Did you not read the words that I posted? > [@DrDeth](#): > > Unless you think Shia LeBeouf is on that list as he refused to sleep with Micheal Bay. 🙄 🤫 This has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. I’m sure there are plenty of people in Hollywood who have been problematic, who aren’t “angels.” But I have no time for listicles from gossip-clickbait sites that repeat rumours that are often dropped for the exact reasons outlined in my original cites. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/405 "2021-04-09T21:30:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m not sure what else you want here. They are not writing, they are not producing, they are not financing, they are not directing. They are following a script that was written by someone else, on a production that is being managed and paid for by someone else, for a project that is being directed and overseen by someone else. It is obvious that you have no idea what being an actor is about our anything about the collaborative processes that take place between actors and directors. Your constant disparagement of them as essentially disposable meat puppets who just read words off of a page says much more about you than it does about them. Sincerely, ShadowFax (Theatre Director) ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/406 "2021-04-09T21:52:02Z")
Oh, mate ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/407 "2021-04-09T21:58:59Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > It is obvious that you have no idea what being an actor is about our anything about the collaborative processes that take place between actors and directors. Your constant disparagement of them as essentially disposable meat puppets who just read words off of a page says much more about you than it does about them. > > Sincerely, ShadowFax (Theatre Director) Acting well is really hard. I’ve only done it a little (acting, not acting well) but there is a lot of creativity required to make a role work. Actors aren’t robots you can program. If someone went to Van Gogh and said, “Paint a starry sky, make sure you see the moon, oh and it should be overlooking a town,” you wouldn’t give the bulk of the credit to the person who made the suggestion. Acting is much the same; you can be given lines, be given queues as to where to stand, when to time your movements, what to do, but your delivery, your mannerisms, the part that makes the character and makes the scene have to come from you. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/408 "2021-04-09T22:25:50Z")
Plus, franchise are different. Whedon may be directing Wonder Woman now, but he won’t be directly Wonder Woman’s next film, or the one after that - and yet, she has to be the same character in all of them. Gal Gadot needs to make sure that Wonder Woman is fundamentally the same person she was in the past and the same person she would be in the future. In a way, the franchise actors are their characters’ “custodians”, far more than they would be in a non-franchise film, especially when the franchise lacks a manager like Kevin Feige to keep a strong hand on the tiller. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/409 "2021-04-09T22:58:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sure, but what does that matter? The audience _craves_ catchphrases. Apparently. Neither of us think that’s true. It’s not about catchphrases per se, it’s about connecting the film to other popular incarnations of these characters. Audience like the animated Cyborg, and WB was desperate to attach some of that good will to their dour and poorly received live action movies. Having him use the catchphrase from the cartoon is one fairly benign way to do that. Having Superman say “Up, Up and Away,” wouldn’t have the same effect, because almost no one alive has first-hand memories of the Superman radio serial. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/410 "2021-04-09T23:07:46Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m not sure what else you want here. They are not writing, they are not producing, they are not financing, they are not directing. They are following a script that was written by someone else, on a production that is being managed and paid for by someone else, for a project that is being directed and overseen by someone else. …this reminds me of a story that J. Michael Straczynski once told about the late, great Andreas Katsulas. > [@JMS](#): > > Stracynski revealed the details behind one of the iconic scenes in Babylon 5, where “Londo” and “G’Kar” are stuck in an elevator. In the scene, “G’Kar” hates “Londo” so much that he decides not to try to save them just so he can watch Londo die. Stracynski revealed that he intended the scene to be a very serious moment. When he walked on set at the beginning of filming, he heard the two actors laughing. Katsulas and Jurasik plead with Stracynski to allow them to try the scene with humor before doing it in a serious tone. Stracynski saw one take and told them to keep it the way they interpreted the moment. Speaking of Katsulas, Stracynski said, “He could always go one step further than you wanted it to go and make it extraordinary.” > **[JMS speaks at PhoenixCon, elaborates on BTS, and truth about writing O'Hare...](https://forum.gateworld.net/sci-fi-and-fantasy-television/babylon-5/89876-jms-speaks-at-phoenixcon-elaborates-on-bts-and-truth-about-writing-o-hare-out)** > > Visit the feature site at SciFi Stream! The scene in question if you haven’t seen it. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/NkwF5BBL26I/hqdefault.jpg "Babylon 5 G'Kar Londo elevator whole scene") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkwF5BBL26I) Stracynski notoriously didn’t allow the actors to improvise lines on the set of Babylon 5 because the series was conceived as one-long-novel-for-television and scripts were peppered with lines that’s meaning might not be revealed until many episodes (or even years) later. And the episodes (Convictions) A-Plot wasn’t a particularly interesting episode, wasn’t that tied to the story arc, and almost nobody outside of Babylon 5 fandom know who directed the episode (It was Mike Vejar). But every Babylon 5 fan remembers that _scene_. It was a great script. But Katsulas and Jurasik elevated that moment and took it in a direction that even the writer didn’t know was possible. And that’s the thing you seem to be missing. Movies and television are enormously complex machines and almost every part of that production is important. I’ve only dabbled in the industry, I made a couple of (really bad) short films for film school a couple of years ago and what struck me from that experience was that any production, even the bad ones, that make it onto screen are a minor miracle. A simple scene of a couple of characters walking down a street, having a conversation, walking up to a house, opening the door, going inside and sitting down could take half a day to film, maybe even longer. You’ve got wardrobe and make up and lighting and sound and the camera crew and the assistants and often they are all making major decisions independent of the director because thats what you’ve got to do to get a movie made. So the thought that actors are simply supposed to “recite the lines that they are given, in the way that the director wants them recited” ignores pretty much everything that makes hollywood what it is. Film and television are collaborative works. This doesn’t mean that production should grind to a halt every time an actor thinks that a line delivery should be done differently. But context is important. And when we look at what happened with Justice League that context is clear. The story we were lead to believe at the time was that Synder was pulling back from the production to spend time with his family after the death of his daughter, and the impression we got was that Whedon was “hand picked” and approved by Snyder to take over the film. But that wasn’t what happened. At the highest level there were worries about the direction Snyder was taking the franchise, and rightfully so IMHO. I don’t like the Snyderverse. I’ve tried watching all the films in the franchise but never managed to finish any of them. And so they bought in people to “babysit” the production. > [@Vanity Fair](#): > > but Warner Bros.’ then chairman and CEO, Kevin Tsujihara, did assign watchdogs in the form of DC Entertainment creative chief Geoff Johns and Warner Bros. co-production head Jon Berg. The edict was clear: At least one of them had to be on the set every day. > **[‘Justice League’: The Shocking, Exhilarating, Heartbreaking True Story of...](https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/02/the-true-story-of-justice-league-snyder-cut)** > > A demoralizing battle with Warner Bros. A devastating personal tragedy. A fan base he couldn’t control. Zack Snyder tells V.F. why he quit ‘Justice League,’ and why he’s returned to complete a cut that’s reached near-mythical status. Again, nothing really wrong with this, and Synder agreed. > [@](#): > > Snyder knew why Johns and Berg were on the set. “You could say babysit,” he says. Many filmmakers would have bristled at the intrusion, but he was gracious. “It didn’t bother me too much because they weren’t that threatening. I just felt the ideas they did have, where they were trying to inject humor and stuff like that, it wasn’t anything that was too outrageous.” Whedon was bought onto the production not at the request of Snyder, but because Johns bought him in to do rewrites. But he didn’t only do rewrites, he was advising during reshoots and even directing scenes while Synder was still attached to the production. > [@](#): > > **Reports that Snyder** himself asked Whedon for help were false. Johns, one of the studio-appointed babysitters, had been planning a _Batgirl_ movie with Whedon, and Snyder and others say Johns recruited him to do rewrites for _Justice League._ (Johns’s representatives didn’t respond to a request for comment.) Once again, Snyder was gracious and even hopeful: “I thought maybe he could write some cool scenes. I thought that would be fun.” > > Soon, it became clear that Warner Bros. was giving Whedon more and more power. He would not just advise during reshoots, but also do some directing himself. Snyder says he only had one conversation with Whedon, about the studio’s notes. Reeling from Autumn’s death—and finding anguish in their work rather than relief—Zack and Deborah quit. “We just lost the will to fight that fight in a lot of ways,” says Zack. “All of us, the whole family, we’re just so broken by [losing Autumn] that having those conversations in the middle of it really became…I was like, ‘Really?’ Frankly I think we did the right thing because I think it would’ve been either incredibly belligerent or we just rolled over.” I don’t think we can ignore all of this when talking about individual incidents like the “Booyah” moment. This was a major shift in the direction of the production. It was essentially a hostile takeover. I’m sure that many of us have had this happen in real life: you had a boss who was always honest, respectful and collaborative, but didn’t always get the results the bosses wanted so they fired him and replaced him with a cocky arsehole who doesn’t give a fuck. Whedon is the cocky arsehole who didn’t give a fuck and I don’t blame the cast and crew of Justice League for pushing back on him at all. We can’t ignore Whedon’s history and pattern of abusive behaviour before this movie and pretend that he didn’t act the very same way on set here. Context is everything. And the conversation between Fisher and Whedon didn’t happen in a vacuum. > [@Alessan](#): > > especially when the franchise lacks a manager like Kevin Feige to keep a strong hand on the tiller. I’m in awe of what Feige has done with the MCU since they essentially handed him the keys to do whatever he wanted. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/412 "2021-04-10T03:51:30Z")
What does this mean? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/413 "2021-04-10T03:53:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > We can’t ignore Whedon’s history and pattern of abusive behaviour before this movie… What history? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/414 "2021-04-10T06:58:42Z")
> [@ShadowFacts](#): > > Sincerely, ShadowFax (Theatre Director) Thank you for this. I have an acting degree and a resume of credits in both theater and film, and the phenomenal level of grotesque and judgmental ignorance being displayed in this thread about the art and craft of being a professional actor is absolutely infuriating. It’s disheartening that we have to say this on the 'Dope, but… if you don’t actually know what you’re talking about, e.g. if you think actors are interchangeable meat puppets who contribute nothing to a production except as story delivery systems for the actual creative leaders of the show, then maybe you should stop talking. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/415 "2021-04-10T09:58:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What history? …LOL 😅 🤣 😂 The thread title might give you a hint on where to start. Then maybe try reading some of the thread you are participating in. Hint: the thread is called “Whedon’s history of creating toxic and hostile work environments.” Plenty of cites have already been provided. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/416 "2021-04-10T14:48:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Having Superman say “Up, Up and Away,” wouldn’t have the same effect, because almost no one alive has first-hand memories of the Superman radio serial. The phrase is still very attached to Superman, even if _he_ doesn’t actually say it anymore. You just have to look at the title of [one of the YT trailers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aJWFtRUcBc) for the new Superman & Lois series to see that. But yes, Supes and WW no longer use their old catchphrases. You seem to think it’s because they’re not needed for iconic characters. I think it’s because many people think _in this context_, they’re lame and infantilizing. Or, at best, meme-fodder (“I’m Batman”, anyone?) > [@Miller](#): > > Audience like the animated Cyborg, and WB was desperate to attach some of that good will to their dour and poorly received live action movies. Having him use the catchphrase from the cartoon is one fairly benign way to do that. Anyone watching the movie because they were familiar with cartoon Cyborg _is already sold_ on at least watching the movie. As for what they think about it afterwards - giving _this_ Cyborg the cartoon catchphrase isn’t going to remind them how much they like that one, it’s going to have them make comparisons between how shitty this rewritten characterization is compared to that one. Ask me how I know? I’m a big fan of both the _TT_ and _TTG_ incarnations. This one left me cold. Part of that was the terrible dehumanizing overly-busy _Transformers_-like CGI they chose for him, but part of it was how he was written. Not a fan of the Flash in this, either. And I’m not against character rewrites - _Aquaman_ was a huge favourite for me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/417 "2021-04-10T14:55:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > What history? What thread do you think you’re posting in? Did you read the OP? > [@DrDeth](#): > > What does this mean? It means no one but you read that and was under the illusion they were talking about inventing the actual character of Cyborg. They were clearly talking about developing the character_ **ization** _ of Cyborg _in this movie_. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/418 "2021-04-10T15:27:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It means no one but you read that and was under the illusion they were talking about inventing the actual character of Cyborg. They were clearly talking about developing the character _ **ization** _ of Cyborg _in this movie_ I mean, yes, exactly, but as a bonus I’m pretty sure the word I used was not “created” but “developed” and I’m very sure I chose it for a reason ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/419 "2021-04-10T15:40:40Z")
> [@Staggerlee](#): > > But it’s a stretch to then conclude his words are always dripping with bigotry. Our culture is steeped in unspoken, unconscious bigotry. It’s a stretch to conclude that racism is not an implicit factor in interactions between white and black people. We live in a racist, white supremacist society. Every black person faced with a white person is facing institutional and cultural bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/420 "2021-04-10T16:08:02Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’m not sure how that works. If someone says the same mocking thing to a white man and a black man, it is racist when directed at the black man? Of course it can. What kind of world do you think you’re living in? That’s practically in the definition of a racist culture. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > There is nothing demeaning to anyone’s dignity in saying “Booyha!” Nothing if you isolate it that way. Fisher had plenty of reasons why, based on the history of the development of the character and the nature and relationship to other characters. Racism is about context. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Clearly he did. But, there is a difference between feeling demeaned, and actually being demeaned. Who are you to tell someone who feels demeaned that E has not _actually_ been demeaned? > [@k9bfriender](#): > > You avoided the question last time, so I ask again, was the voice actor for Teen Titans being demeaned by saying Boo yah? Different context. > [@planetcory](#): > > The person who doesn’t have any sensitivity to that, or try to preserve any of that, is actually antagonistic to the very idea, and thinks, ‘shut up and do what you’re told,’ amidst all of that context… I have no issue calling that person racist. That person is racist. > [@silenus](#): > > Just about every powerful _anybody_ is an asshole to someone or some group. It’s a by-product of power. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > From what I’ve seen so far, the answer is that he’s more or less just a run of the mill asshole, probably with a good dash of narcissism developed due to his successes. Could use some work in the befriending department, but so could most people. This is a cop-out. We aren’t just fighting racists, sexists, and rapists. We are fighting abuse of all kind. > [@Eonwe](#): > > There is an interesting and valuable discussion here, but every time someone flippantly sums up an actor’s job as “recite the lines they are given,” it’s clear that you’re either ignorantly or intentionally minimizing the scope of their skill and responsibilities in order to make their complaints easier for you to write off. > [@ShadowFacts](#): > > It is obvious that you have no idea what being an actor is about our anything about the collaborative processes that take place between actors and directors. Your constant disparagement of them as essentially disposable meat puppets who just read words off of a page says much more about you than it does about them. > > Sincerely, ShadowFax (Theatre Director) There is a lot to learn in this thread about acting and the complex relationships in a performance. Anyone who sits here saying an actor’s job is just to “do what E’s told” needs to sit back and listen. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/421 "2021-04-10T16:10:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But yes, Supes and WW no longer use their old catchphrases. You seem to think it’s because they’re not needed for iconic characters. I think it’s because many people think _in this context_ , they’re lame and infantilizing. Or, at best, meme-fodder (“I’m Batman”, anyone?) I think you’re confusing me with another poster - I never said the iconic characters didn’t _need_ them, I just said that they don’t _have_ them. I also don’t think they’re lame or infantilizing at all - although I suspect Zack Snyder probably feels that way. Which, I suppose, goes to your “in this context” comment, but that’s sort of the point: WB was trying as hard as they could, within the limits of the footage that had already been shot, to change the context of the film from what Snyder was trying to create, to something that an audience might actually want to watch. And, to be clear, it absolutely failed - the movie they put in theaters was awful, and no amount of cribbing from more successful iterations of these characters would have fixed that. I personally find the idea that the studio spent hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars on the issue of whether a character should say “Booyah” or not, while the rest of the production is such an obvious, unsalvageable trash fire, to be kind of hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/422 "2021-04-10T16:14:51Z")
The man in charge of the studio at the time, Kevin Tsujihara, came to the job after successfully running a chain of theme parks. That tells you everything you need to know about how he approached the role. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/423 "2021-04-10T16:15:33Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > WB was trying as hard as they could, within the limits of the footage that had already been shot, to change the context of the film from what Snyder was trying to create, to something that an audience might actually want to watch. This sums up the entire movie in a nutshell. Snyder is a no talent hack and his work in the DCEU is an Abomination Unto Nuggan. It’s no wonder TPTB brought in the architect of Marvel’s major blockbuster to that point. They were hoping that _something_ could be done to save the mess Snyder created with all their money. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=22)