# So that happened... Whedon's “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments” **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 12, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735 "2021-02-12T08:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/444 "2021-04-10T17:39:09Z")
I prefer the music of We’re Certainly Dwarfs. No accordion. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/445 "2021-04-10T17:41:00Z")
I’m not a big fan of Hole music. Anyway, Dwarfs are an Abomination Unto Nuggan. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/446 "2021-04-10T17:57:34Z")
I still think a lot about some of Louis CK’s bits on raising children (Pig Newtons is so good, and my kid’s gonna survive the apocalypse), but every time I do I also think about him being a fucking asshole. Whedon’s less severe, but in the same category. I still love a great deal of his work; his witty fast-paced banter is right up my alley. Hearing that he was a pompous sneering asshole to his employees, especially to women and people of color (I’m unaware of any of the white dudes who worked with him who’ve had stories about his shitty behavior) sucks, and makes me a lot less inclined to seek out new work from him going forward. I don’t especially care whether being an asshole has been acceptable/common behavior in Hollywood. It’s not okay to treat other people like shit. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/447 "2021-04-10T18:05:11Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Hearing that he was a pompous sneering asshole to his employees, especially to women and people of color (I’m unaware of any of the white dudes who worked with him who’ve had stories about his shitty behavior) sucks, and makes me a lot less inclined to seek out new work from him going forward. [He was reportedly a dick to James Marsters.](https://www.cinemablend.com/television/2550344/buffy-the-vampire-slayers-james-marsters-recalls-awkward-encounter-with-joss-whedon) ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/448 "2021-04-10T20:30:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We have already dismissed most of that so called history. I mean, other than Whedon being a normal Hollywood asshole. …I’m sorry what do you mean “we?” What is your benchmark for “normal?” Care to quantify that? Because while there are plenty of assholes in Hollywood Whedons behaviour goes well beyond that. His actions caused emotional scars that still resonate with multiple people over 20 years after he inflicted them. That isn’t **normal**. **You** don’t get to decide what **we** think. And even if I accepted your assertion that he was a “normal Hollywood asshole” (and to be clear: I don’t accept that characterization) normal Hollywood assholes can have history and patterns of abusive behaviour. And they can have history and patterns of abusive behaviour **because they are assholes.** ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/449 "2021-04-10T20:46:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Never mind what’s the use. Don’t promise if you’re not gonna deliver. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/450 "2021-04-10T21:22:57Z")
That’s three. There are like dozens posting here. Well, tell yah what. Give me the numbers of the posts where _you_ brought in new solid info that shows Whedon is a asshole of assholes, a racist bigot, a molester, a sexual predator, etc, a asshole to rival, if not surpass, Weinstein. Nothing third hand, nothing “insiders say” or any of that crap. Now, I am not giving Whedon slack mind you. I accept he is a egotistical Hollywood asshole. I am shocked, _shocked_ I tell you. 🤪 But I havent seen anything that shows he rises to the level of a Weinstein, or even above the general pack of egotistical Hollywood assholes. What shocked a lot of people is that he put out the “nice guy” _image_, and he aint. But go ahead, show me the money… err _the posts._ Same thing for you Ms. Bear. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/451 "2021-04-10T21:31:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s three. There are like dozens posting here. “The posters” is all-inclusive. Just one was enough to give the lie to your claim. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Give me the numbers Naah, not playing this dumb game with you, where you construct strawmen like “racist bigot” and “sexual predator” and declare victory, when no-one said that. Sufficient that I’ve shown your “the posters” is bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/452 "2021-04-10T21:33:16Z")
Then show me what ya got. Or- you got nuttin. And I never said all the posters. But generally the consensus here, besides a couple hold outs is the Whedon is nothing exceptional in the asshole line. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/453 "2021-04-10T21:39:54Z")
Sure. _Right after_ another credible poster backs you up on your - let’s say, charitably, “idiosyncratic” - reading of **Stanislaus** ’ post. What, did you think _ **we** _’d forgotten? > [@DrDeth](#): > > I never said all the posters. “The posters” means the same thing > [@DrDeth](#): > > besides a couple hold outs _ **Two** _ is “a couple”. Three is already more than two (and _ **we** _’re not the only 3, either). I do not think playing “My gang is bigger than yours” is going to turn out to be the winning argument for you that you think, mate. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/454 "2021-04-10T22:02:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > that shows Whedon is a asshole of assholes, a racist bigot, a molester, a sexual predator, etc, a asshole to rival, if not surpass, Weinstein. …this is a strawman. Almost nobody surpasses Weinstein and nobody here is claiming anything of the sort. There are degrees of asshole. There is the typical Hollywood asshole, like Matt Damon, who is utterly [clueless about his privilege and how diversity works](https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/sep/17/matt-damon-damonsplaining-apology-diversity-race). Whedon is many degrees worse than the typical Hollywood asshole because he used his power and privilege to be **deliberately** cruel. He was a bully. And he was orders of magnitude worse than someone like Damon. But nobody thinks he was a Weinstein. The fact that Weinstein is orders of magnitude worse than Whedon doesn’t mean that Whedon can’t be orders of magnitude worse than the typical Hollywood asshole. And none of this means that Whedon doesn’t have a history and patterns of abusive behaviour. Because it is clear and obvious by reading all the cites already provided in this thread that he does. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2021, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/455 "2021-04-10T22:04:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But generally the consensus here, besides a couple hold outs is the **Whedon is nothing exceptional** in the asshole line. …when exactly did this happen? And even if he wasn’t “exceptional”, does his history and patterns of abusive behaviour suddenly no longer exist? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/456 "2021-04-11T00:58:01Z")
I don’t personally have much experience in acting (beyond some school or church plays). But I have read some biographies of actors I like. I know Leonard Nimoy talked extensively in _I Am Spock_ about the interchange between actors and directors. There was a ton of stuff where he was essentially in charge of keeping Spock consistent and avoiding issues. He was expected to give his opinions and suggestions. The whole reason for the iconic Vulcan nerve pinch? Nimoy thought it didn’t really fit Spock’s character for him to punch a guy to knock him out. He argued that Vulcans were more sophisticated and would know a pressure point that could render someone unconscious. (He also noted something a lot of people don’t remember: Vulcans can spread a bit of electrical energy from their finger tips.) The director didn’t get into a fight with him and say you must do what the script says. He said asked “Well, how would that look?” Shatner was nearby, so they improvised a scene. He was able to faint on cue from Spock’s nerve pinch. Nimoy is also the one who suggested the Vulcan salute, copying it from his Jewish background. It is the symbol for the Hebrew letter shin, standing for Shakina, or the glory of God, and was used in both hands by his rabbis when they prayed. It’s entirely expected that actors will come in and say “I don’t think I should say [or do[ this.” What you’re supposed to do is listen to their ideas and try to work it out, not get into some battle to try and force the issue. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/457 "2021-04-11T03:25:50Z")
… with Doc and the OG Tonight Show Orchestra. You’ve made my Saturday. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/458 "2021-04-11T03:55:08Z")
There’s a great scene in _Man of Steel_ where holographic Jor-el is arguing with Zod when the former tells the ladder, “My son is twice the man you were.” Michael Shannon does an excellent job showing us how much that statement hurt Zod. That right there tells me Synder isn’t a no talent hack. I didn’t care for Snyder’s vision of Superman. It wasn’t the fact that Superman kills Zod at the end of the movie it was just the overall tone. I didn’t need a Pa Kent who suggests that letting a busload of kids die might be the better alternative than Clark revealing his powers. After watching a Superman movie I should feel pretty good rather than depressed. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/459 "2021-04-11T06:10:34Z")
[nitpick] Former tells the **latter** [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/460 "2021-04-11T17:31:43Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > That right there tells me Synder isn’t a no talent hack. I didn’t care for Snyder’s vision of Superman. True, Snyder can direct, but he doesnt like or understand Superheroes. He was just the wrong choice. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/461 "2021-04-11T17:48:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Snyder … doesnt like or understand Superheroes. [You sure about that?](https://ew.com/article/2008/07/17/watchmen-chat-director-zack-snyder/) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/462 "2021-04-11T17:54:28Z")
From that interview > [@Zack Snyder](#): > > You could call it ”high-brow” comics, but to me, that comic book was just pretty sexy! I had a buddy who tried getting me into ”normal” comic books, but I was all like, ”No one is having sex or killing each other. This isn’t really doing it for me.” I was a little broken, that way. So when _Watchmen_ came along, I was, ”This is more my scene. Not quite the rebuttal you were aiming for, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/463 "2021-04-11T17:55:38Z")
Also, I loved me some Heavy Metal as a kid, but describing it as “high brow” is a pretty hilarious self-own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=24)