# So that happened... Whedon's “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments” **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 12, 2021, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735 "2021-02-12T08:29:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/464 "2021-04-11T17:57:12Z")
Yes, I am sure that is my opinion. All his films are grimdark to me. And Watchmen is a book for Superhero haters. Now the 300 was fun, a hot mess, grimdark, and I liked it. He sez _"I came to comic books through my mother. I loved fantasy art — I love Frank Frazetta…I was into this comic called Heavy Metal magazine\>\>_" which is adultish comics and not superhero at all. However, just to show you I am not alone: > **[Zack Snyder Never Really Understood Batman, Or Superman](https://www.forbes.com/sites/danidiplacido/2019/03/26/zack-snyder-never-really-understood-batman-or-superman/?sh=6da0cf2a6f07)** > > Batman is not the Punisher. _Zack Snyder Never Really Understood Batman, Or Superman… Snyder’s incredibly eloquent defense certainly doesn’t clarify his creative decision, other than the fact that Snyder thinks the idea of a crimefighter who never kills people is ridiculous. Which it is, as is the concept of a billionaire in a bat costume._ _What Snyder seems to be saying is, there are no real heroes. Something along the lines of what his previous superhero film, Watchmen , was all about. Watchmen , however, was a clever deconstruction of the superhero genre; it was a strange move to try something similar with archetypal characters like Superman and Batman._ [http://www.thegeektwins.com/2019/03/6-reasons-zack-snyder-had-awful-ideas.html](http://www.thegeektwins.com/2019/03/6-reasons-zack-snyder-had-awful-ideas.html) > **[Zack Snyder doesn't understand superheroes](https://forums.mixedmartialarts.com/t/zack-snyder-doesnt-understand-superheroes/2767707)** > > From https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-batman-killing-wake-up/ The choice to have Ben Affleck's Dark Knight kill in Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice proved controversial for many fans of the character. However, director Zack Snyder still... > **[15 Things That Zack Snyder Just Doesn't Get About Superman](https://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-wrong-superman/)** > > We take a look at 15 things that director Zack Snyder never understood about Superman during his tenure as figurehead of the DCEU! _# Man Of Reel: 15 Things That Zack Snyder Just Doesn’t Get About Superman_ _We take a look at 15 things that director Zack Snyder never understood about Superman during his tenure as figurehead of the DCEU!_ So it isnt just me that thinks that. That doesnt mean I dont think he is a talentless hack, but IMHO he was the wrong person for the DCU. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/465 "2021-04-11T17:58:39Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > that is my opinion. Now, why didn’t you say that up front? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/466 "2021-04-11T18:03:33Z")
Because it was obvious from context? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/467 "2021-04-11T18:04:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not quite the rebuttal you were aiming for, I think. [He supposedly has stated that he “is a fan of Superman”](https://www.quora.com/Does-Zack-Snyder-hate-Superman-If-he-does-then-why) but I can’t find where. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/468 "2021-04-11T18:04:35Z")
Good point Miller. Yeah, liking Heavy Metal with the tits and the gore and the fantasy- but it is is pretty much the opposite of liking superhero comics. Mind you, I also liked Heavy Metal at times, but was never a big fan. Same with the Film. Ok, fun in place, but not great. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/469 "2021-04-11T18:28:43Z")
> [@Superdude](#): > > [nitpick] > Former tells the **latter** > [/nitpick] Dammit! I typed in latter first and thought to myself that it didn’t look correct. I wish I could blame the alcohol but I hadn’t been drinking. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/470 "2021-04-11T19:31:12Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Also, I loved me some Heavy Metal as a kid, but describing it as “high brow” is a pretty hilarious self-own. The _Heavy Metal_ of Snyder’s 80s youth would have been still largely just the translated _Métal Hurlant_. _Mœbius_, at least, _was_ high brow. And that’s not just me saying it - it’s [people like](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Giraud#Influence_and_legacy): Gaiman > I read [_Métal Hurlant_] over and over and envied the French because they had everything I dreamed of in comics – beautifully drawn, visionary and literate comics, for adults. I wanted to make comics like that when I grew up and Fellini > He’s a unique talent endowed with an extraordinary visionary imagination that’s constantly renewed and never vulgar. Moebius disturbs and consoles. He has the ability to transport us into unknown worlds where we encounter unsettling characters. My admiration for him is total. I consider him a great artist, as great as [Picasso](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pablo_Picasso) and [Matisse](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_Matisse). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/471 "2021-04-11T20:27:40Z")
I was reading the same translations. It wasn’t all Moebius. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/472 "2021-04-11T21:00:48Z")
No, it was also stuff like Bilal, Druillet, Jodorowsky. Hell, even Manara, as much as I dislike him, is not lowbrow trash. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/473 "2021-04-11T21:59:01Z")
Just throwing out there that this thread is the most ridiculously wide ranging thread I’ve been involved in for a long time. We have misogyny, bullying, racism, Hollywood Assholes, the value of Actors, and whether or not Zack Snyder likes comics. 5 stars, would read again. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/474 "2021-04-11T23:43:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It wasn’t all Moebius. > [@MrDibble](#): > > No, it was also stuff like Bilal, Druillet, Jodorowsky. > > Hell, even Manara, as much as I dislike him, is not lowbrow trash. Dang right. There was some seriously good stuff there. In the US market this was something quite different back in the day. _However_, must also recognize, _Heavy Metal_ was not an entirely faithful transposition of _Métal Hurlant_ – couldn’t really be, the popular cultures are different enough – and the way it was sold and promoted came across as resting too much on the “tits and gore” angle for the American market. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2021, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/475 "2021-04-11T23:52:58Z")
How it was sold and promoted really doesn’t have much to do with the conversation though, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2021, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/476 "2021-04-12T01:44:55Z")
I always wanted adult comics, with sex and nudity, but also with good stories and art. I tried subscribing to _Heavy Metal_ for a while and found that the art was often shitty (horrible digital renderings too much of the time), the writing was often terrible, and instead of sexy adult stories, there was way too much over-the-top gore and depravity. Not what I wanted at all. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2021, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/477 "2021-04-12T05:54:23Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > _However_ , must also recognize, _Heavy Metal_ was not an entirely faithful transposition of _Métal Hurlant_ – couldn’t really be, the popular cultures are different enough – and the way it was sold and promoted came across as resting too much on the “tits and gore” angle for the American market. Sure, but even a 50% faithful rendering was still enough to make it _not_ a “hilarious self-own” to consider it high brow. > [@Acsenray](#): > > I always wanted adult comics, with sex and nudity, but also with good stories and art. I tried subscribing to _Heavy Metal_ for a while and found that the art was often shitty (horrible digital renderings too much of the time), the writing was often terrible, and instead of sexy adult stories, there was way too much over-the-top gore and depravity. Sounds like you got into it later in the game, especially if it was a lot of digital renderings. ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2021, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/478 "2021-04-12T12:59:53Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Sure, but even a 50% faithful rendering was still enough to make it _not_ a “hilarious self-own” to consider it high brow. The real question is if those are the kind of comics he liked (and I just went through your list to remind me of their styles) then why do his comic movies look so dark? They should look like _The Fifth Element_. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/479 "2021-04-12T13:41:28Z")
Because he’s not a teen anymore, and his tastes (and the public’s) have changed? ---
**Author:** ![FigNorton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fignorton/32/5619_2.png) [@FigNorton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FigNorton)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/480 "2021-04-12T14:15:55Z")
Well, judging by the success of his comic movies, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2021, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/481 "2021-04-12T14:28:25Z")
His success has been _highly_ variable. But the SnyderCut definitely has a higher rating than the theatrical _JL_ release, so he clearly still has his fans (I’m _not_ one of them - I haven’t even seen the SnyderCut, have never seen more than small snatches of _300_ and only watched _JL_ under protest. I did like quite a bit of _MoS_, though. We do not talk about _Watchmen_.) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/482 "2021-04-12T16:12:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > > [@silenus](#): > > > > Snyder is a no talent hack and his work in the DCEU is an Abomination Unto Nuggan > > This is not an evident truth. His DC movies are certainly not masterworks, but they are perfectly average superhero movies, at the very least. He does have a vision, which he was able to realize, once he was allowed, and it makes for a coherent movie. He certainly is not a “no-talent hack.” He does have the ability to bring a singular vision to celluloid. Again, it might not be my favorite, but it’s not nothing. He has talent. He’s just a terrible writer and director. His talent lies in producing awesome scenes. Not awesome stories. Which is what Whedon is actually good at. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2021, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735/483 "2021-04-12T16:15:58Z")
As an aside, many people are lauding the Snyder Cut as so much better than Whedon’s need to factor in, that the Snyder cut is _two hours longer._ Whedon had to produce a movie that would be releasable. He only had the shots Snyder had already produced and a few pickup scenes. If Snyder can’t write a film that can fit into the time he actually has, he failed as a writer. Comparing the two and finding the one that’s half the length faulty for lacking characterization is absurd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-that-happened-whedons-history-of-creating-toxic-and-hostile-work-environments/932735.md?page=25)