So that happened... Whedon's “history of creating toxic and hostile work environments”

Genre fiction isn’t for children by default. Understanding that isn’t difficult, yet here we are.

Warning and 1 day suspension for Manwich. It was felt he was trolling with his posts in this thread. I was holding myself out of the judgement but then many more flags came in and other mods chimed in.

Your posting privilege will be discussed.

There are at least 4 posts in this thread that are basically trolling.

Same here. Sometimes “hostile and toxic work environment” is just that, a toxic and hostile work environment. “I am not at ease around this person” does not have only one possible answer to fill in the blank.

And the whole “he’s a neurotic asshole but oh the results he delivers” thing is overrated. Especially because it’s more often used to give license to other people who are just plain assholes, to claim that to be their case – or that if the way you are treated stays just this side of criminal conduct, then it’s not abuse and you should not complain.

Somewhat O/T but obligatory citations to Tolkien’s “On Fairy Stories” and LeGuin’s Language of the Night.

Yeah, being an abusive jerk is bad enough that we don’t need to speculate on other awful things Joss might have done. And it’s kind of refreshing to see a Hollywood scandal involving someone powerful that doesn’t revolve around sexual harassment for a change. Not that I’m happy Whedon created a toxic environment, but with Ellen and now Whedon’s behavior becoming more known by the public I hope it encourages others to speak out against abuse behavior like #metoo encouraged women to speak about sexual harassment.

I’ve seen women complain that they were sexually harassed because someone they matched with on Tinder asked them on a date. While I think that’s an extreme example, it seems like people are just oblivious to context in a lot of cases. There’s definitely a problem with toxic workplaces and “boys will be boys” behavior still. But one of the issues with AA and the “woke warrior” thing being discussed here is a problem with identity and people painting themselves into a corner by embracing these labels and apparently forfeiting the right to act human and make human mistakes in the process of seeking out normal activities.

A hollywood director or producer is a abusive jerk? This is news? To who?

Do people have no knowledge of cinematic history? Stories about John Ford and Stanley Kubrick will make your toes curl.

I’ve ran into abusive directors working as a audio tech in regional theatre. Being a nitpicking asshole is not unusual. Directors have hundreds of small details to manage. Some like Ron Howard are reported to be patient and encouraging. Some are short tempered and volatile.

A little information about Kubrick. Making the The Shining and 2001 A Space Odyssey wasn’t easy. Actors worked with him because he was a brilliant director and visionary. Sometimes that meant getting your butt chewed out. Jack Nicholson and Shelley Duvall 's greatest work is in The Shining.

This whole discussion about genre fiction being for children (or not) is an inappropriate hijack in this thread, but I thought it was an interesting discussion, so I made a separate thread about it:

The fact that a director or producer is an abusive jerk? It’s not news, to anybody. The allegations that this specific director/producer is an abusive jerk? That’s news to a lot of genre fans who love his work. It might be a surprise to some people, due to Whedon’s self-crafted image as a feminist, a “woke” creator before “woke” was a thing, but I doubt most of us are surprised. Just disappointed and saddened.

Even for stuff as small as local commercials. I used to do catering, and one of my oft times gigs was at a local AV studio.

I wasn’t involved in anything but setting up the craft services table, but some of the conversations that I overheard between production staff and talent made me more than a bit uncomfortable. Nothing sexual, but definitely abrasive.

I understand it’s a different situation in tv. Shelly Duvall and Nicholson worked with Kubrick for less than a year. The Actors in Buffy and Angel worked with Whedon for over 7 years.

I can put up with a volatile boss short term. Seven years of butt chewing would be a lot.

John Wayne made a lot of films with Ford. I’ve read Ford was always pushing and prodding Wayne to deliver a better performance.

It’s not just that. Whedon always came across as a nice guy in the good sense of the term, not to mention a cool, laid-back dude - an image he probably nurtured intentionally. Worse, his works are always about friendship and creating impromptu alternative families. Learning that someone like Kubrick or Hitchcock were jerks isn’t that surprising, in retrospect, but with Whedon there’s a huge amount of cognitive dissonance between creation and creator.

Well…maybe…

I’ve encountered more than one case where somebody is making a similar argument about how people are going too far. But if you follow their argument to the point where they discuss the details of specific examples, you often find those examples to be instances of genuine sexual harassment.

If all I knew about the situation of Aziz Ansari and Grace was that they had gone on a date and Grace later accused Ansari of sexual harassment, I would withhold judgement. I wouldn’t join the side that says we should assume any man who is accused of sexual harassment is guilty or the side that says we should assume that any man who is accused of sexual harassment is being falsely accused. But I feel confident in casting my personal judgement in this situation because I’ve had the opportunity to hear what both parties - Grace and Ansari - have to say about the incident.

I agree with that. But it’s also probably true that a lot of the time, Whedon is a genuinely cool, laid back dude, and a nice guy. But a lot of the time, he may also be a raging asshole. And it’s quite possibly also true that with some actors and crew, he’s a cool, laid back dude, and with some he’s a raging asshole. People are complicated.

The problem is a lot of abusive people (in the entertainment industry as well as plenty of others) see being abusive as part of what makes them good at their job. They adopt the mentality that “I’ve got to be an abusive asshole because that’s what it takes to get the job done.” And with that mentality, they see abusiveness as a necessity or even a virtue.

This is not true. In all of these businesses, you will find counter-examples; people who are doing a good job without being abusive to their colleagues. (You used Ron Howard as an example from film directors.)

So a person may be a highly qualified manager and an abusive asshole. But he’s not a highly qualified manager because he’s an abusive asshole. And when we recognize that we can tell people to separate the two aspects of their personality. We can tell people we want them to continue doing the great job they are capable of. But that we expect them to stop doing in a manner that includes abusing the people around them.

Whedon apparently respected Charisma Carpenter’s work. She had a supporting role in Buffy. A regular member of the Scooby gang. Buffy had a large cast of actors. The focus on characters rotated from week to week.

Charisma had a full costarring role on Angel. Apparently the years of friction with Joss led to her leaving in season 5. She was on Buffy three years and four on Angel. I can see how micromanaging someone for that long could ruin a working relationship. It’s sad that Charisma has such negative memories of working on those shows.

You make a very good point Little Nemo. I think it starts with inexperience. Someone is given responsibility and they get results by raising their voice. It escalates over time and they think that’s the only way to get things done.

People can change. They have to make an effort to manage projects in a more cooperative environment. Delegate responsibility.

I feel another big problem is institutional mentality. People who are in charge of businesses will promote people like themselves. So if the people at the top are abusive and see that as a necessary quality for success, they will promote other abusive people who will in turn become the new leadership.

I feel that motivation for change shouldn’t just come from within. Society as a whole - which is all of us as individuals - need to start holding people accountable for their bad behavior and telling them we expect better from them.

So when we hold somebody like Joss Whedon or Gina Carano responsible for their actions and impose consequences upon them, we are motivating them to be better people. And we are motivating other people who might have otherwise followed their example to change their behavior.