So that's why George Lucas botched the prequels

[MrAtoz]

@GuanoLad

Anyway, when Lucas got around to making the Prequels, he struggled with the script. He knew the story, but hated writing the screenplay, so offered the opportunity to multiple people, writers, directors, and they all turned him down. Some for fear of the heavy burden of expectation, some because they thought Lucas would be on their backs at every turn. So he was left to do it on his own, where he proceeded to prove what he had feared in himself, that he’s a bad screenwriter and director. A good storyteller and a marvel at editing action scenes, but otherwise… so disappointing.

That’s my assessment of what I’ve read over the years, anyway.

I seem to recall (though I can’t find a cite for it at the moment) that Frank Darabont was attached to the prequels as a writer at some point, and was actually going to write the screenplay of at least one of them. But Lucas ultimately ended up not being able to let go, and finally decided to do all the writing himself, so Darabont left the project without any hard feelings.

If that’s so, it’s too bad that it didn’t pan out. Darabont had a long career as a script doctor before becoming a director, as well as writing several episodes of The Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, and he certainly knows his way around successful high concept movies. He might well have been able to craft the screenplay into something that was less clunky and more streamlined.

[dracoi]

@Smapti

I’ve always also suspected that a number of people who fell in love with the original movies when they were kids were for some reason surprised that the new movies were also targeted towards kids.

I really don’t think that’s a fair criticism.

The Clone Wars cartoons were also clearly targeted at kids, and I much prefer them to the prequel movies. While we still had to put up with yousa and Roger,Roger, I enjoyed watching them.

[drad_dog]

@Miller

I did a little Googling myself, and it appears to be a pretty fringe theory, at best. It’s not something I’m seeing advanced by anyone who’s got any sort of reputation as a serious comic or film critic. Mostly it’s message board conversations like the one you linked to, and a couple of poorly written and completely unsourced essays.

Right, I’m familiar with the Fourth World stuff. I’ve not read most of the original comics where Kirby created this stuff, but I’ve seen them used by plenty of later writers - and, like I said, I’ve read a lot of criticism of Kirby, so I’ve got a pretty good broad idea of the story and themes he was using. But, again, I haven’t read them personally, so I can’t really speak for or against a connection there.

That being said, you haven’t exactly given me an argument there, so much as a list of nouns. I know who Darkseid is, and Scott Free, Orion, and the whole hostage switch thing. I’m not seeing even the most tenuous ties to Star Wars there. The idea of Darth Vader as a Darkseid knock off seems a particular stretch. The similarity here seems to largely be that they’re both physically imposing villains who prefer darker color schemes. And… that’s about it. The significant visual design elements of Darth Vader are the mask and helmet, the armor, the cape, and the laser sword. Darkseid’s got a helmet. But his face is exposed. He’s also not armored - instead, he rocks a pretty mean mini-skirt. No cape, no weapons at all, generally speaking. I’m sure he’s picked one up on occasion, but he doesn’t really have a signature weapon like Vader’s red lightsaber.

Story-wise, well, again, not having read many of Kirby’s original comics, I’m speaking a bit out of my ass here, but based on how Darkseid has been portrayed by other writers, there seems to be a pretty stark difference there, too. They’ve got different personalities - Vader is ultimately a minion, while Darkseid is the ultimate egoist. They’ve got different power sets. The central character conflict in Star Wars in essentially dyadic - Luke and Vader - where as the conflict in Kirby’s Fourth World is more triangular: Darkseid versus both his natural son, Orion, and his “adopted” son Mr. Miracle. (I’m not sure what the relationship is like between Orion and Scott, but I’m guessing it’s not too similar to Luke and Leia’s relationship. Almost certainly less tongue kissing, if nothing else.)

I could go on for a while like that, and that’s just from a pretty superficial knowledge of the original story. What similarities I do see, such as the Force/Source thing, seem pretty broad, and are probably better explained by Kirby and Lucas both drawing on the same sources for inspiration.

Here I am talking about the basic ideas of the first movie. For people who read the books I don’t think it was a fringe idea. Looking back 30 or 40 years without having read it firsthand you can spin it any way you want.

Roy Thomas says he was with Lucas in 1972 when he described Star Wars and it seemed to him a lot like 4th world.

Lucas having dinner with Roy Thomas in 1972? Lucas was obviously a comics fan

Kirby is the biggest name in the history of comics. There is almost no analog in any other field to his achievements. The Beatles had 8 years or so. Kirby was in his prime for 35 years.

His Marvel comics inventions were the biggest thing going during the 60s. (And possibly in the 21st century as well, no?) And when he left Marvel to go to DC it was big news. For Lucas and everyone else. What stories was he going to tell???

The 4th world books came out from 1970 to 1973. This is Star Wars gestation period.

The details that you use to distinguish these characters don’t seem as important as the visual and plot themes that they seem to share. Of course there are going to be changes and variations. I’m sure Lucas didn’t just use a xerox machine to do his copying, after all. Comics are basically visual images and I’m convinced Darth is just a filmed plastic version of Darkseid notwithstanding smaller details.

I’m fairly sure if you made a movie of 4th world it would be seen as a ripoff of Lucas. There are more similarities here than between any James Bond novel and it’s corresponding movie certainly.

If the things they share are not so unique, maybe you could point out some examples of stronger influences on Star Wars. Please no more Joseph Campbell though. I can’t take it.

[Miller]

@drad_dog

Here I am talking about the basic ideas of the first movie. For people who read the books I don’t think it was a fringe idea. Looking back 30 or 40 years without having read it firsthand you can spin it any way you want.

Maybe, but I’d like to see some evidence of that. Again, I read a lot of criticism about Star Wars and comics in general. And I’ve never heard this before this thread.

Roy Thomas says he was with Lucas in 1972 when he described Star Wars and it seemed to him a lot like 4th world.

Lucas having dinner with Roy Thomas in 1972? Lucas was obviously a comics fan

That conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow. I once had lunch with a nun, but that doesn’t make me Catholic. How did Lucas and Thomas end up eating together? Who sought out who for that meeting, and why?

Kirby is the biggest name in the history of comics. There is almost no analog in any other field to his achievements. The Beatles had 8 years or so. Kirby was in his prime for 35 years.

His Marvel comics inventions were the biggest thing going during the 60s. (And possibly in the 21st century as well, no?) And when he left Marvel to go to DC it was big news. For Lucas and everyone else. What stories was he going to tell???

The 4th world books came out from 1970 to 1973. This is Star Wars gestation period.

Yeah, you really don’t have to sell me on who Kirby was, or what his role is in the invention of the modern comic book. I get that. But “Kirby was huge in comics!” isn’t an argument for, “Lucas copied heavily from Kirby.”

The details that you use to distinguish these characters don’t seem as important as the visual and plot themes that they seem to share. Of course there are going to be changes and variations. I’m sure Lucas didn’t just use a xerox machine to do his copying, after all. Comics are basically visual images and I’m convinced Darth is just a filmed plastic version of Darkseid notwithstanding smaller details.

I’m fairly sure if you made a movie of 4th world it would be seen as a ripoff of Lucas. There are more similarities here than between any James Bond novel and it’s corresponding movie certainly.

Okay. What are the visual and plot themes they share, specifically? What are all these similarities? How is Vader at all like Darkseid? Because I’m not seeing it at all.

If the things they share are not so unique, maybe you could point out some examples of stronger influences on Star Wars. Please no more Joseph Campbell though. I can’t take it.

Well, Buster Crabbe and the old Flash Gordon/Buck Rodgers serials are the most obvious. Kurosawa, too. Leni Riefenstahl. The Dam Busters. There’s more, but that’s just off the top of my head. And, yeah, Campbell, but that’s more structural than plot-relevant, and really tells us more about Campbell than Lucas.

The thing about all of those influences, though is, Lucas himself has copped to them from the beginning. If I want to demonstrate the influence of Kurosawa on Lucas, I can get it straight from the horse’s mouth. Is there any place where Lucas acknowledges a similar debt to Kirby? If not, why not? This is a guy who was unabashed about cribbing directly from Hitler’s favorite propagandist for his movies - he’s going to be shy about admitting that he reads DC comics?

[ftg]

Lucas was at his best when he was doing ~homage type stuff. When he’s trying to recreate (but with modern techniques!) the feel of old serials, 50s* teen movies, etc.

As the SW series develops, you can’t keep drawing from the 30s serials well over and over. Then the problems develop. New concepts replace the old ones and it doesn’t seem right.

Ditto AG was a nice homage. MAG was … what?

• Placing AG in the 1962 while mostly devoting the music, etc. to the 50s era is weird. Not even consistent, mentioning The Beach Boys before they had their first hit.

[drad_dog]

@Miller

Maybe, but I’d like to see some evidence of that. Again, I read a lot of criticism about Star Wars and comics in general. And I’ve never heard this before this thread.

That conclusion doesn’t necessarily follow. I once had lunch with a nun, but that doesn’t make me Catholic. How did Lucas and Thomas end up eating together? Who sought out who for that meeting, and why?

Yeah, you really don’t have to sell me on who Kirby was, or what his role is in the invention of the modern comic book. I get that. But “Kirby was huge in comics!” isn’t an argument for, “Lucas copied heavily from Kirby.”

Okay. What are the visual and plot themes they share, specifically? What are all these similarities? How is Vader at all like Darkseid? Because I’m not seeing it at all.

Well, Buster Crabbe and the old Flash Gordon/Buck Rodgers serials are the most obvious. Kurosawa, too. Leni Riefenstahl. The Dam Busters. There’s more, but that’s just off the top of my head. And, yeah, Campbell, but that’s more structural than plot-relevant, and really tells us more about Campbell than Lucas.

The thing about all of those influences, though is, Lucas himself has copped to them from the beginning. If I want to demonstrate the influence of Kurosawa on Lucas, I can get it straight from the horse’s mouth. Is there any place where Lucas acknowledges a similar debt to Kirby? If not, why not? This is a guy who was unabashed about cribbing directly from Hitler’s favorite propagandist for his movies - he’s going to be shy about admitting that he reads DC comics?

Please. Those were very cool things to say: Kurosawa, Reifenstahl, etc. . The real truth hurts sometimes. He didn’t want to say he was majorly copping his story from a comic book. It would have been lawsuits time and so uncool to rip off Kirby after he was ripped off for his whole life. It’s not surprising that he admits to vague higher brow inspirings but doesn’t say the real deal thing. We’re all like that. The story went to other places but, as I said, you couldn’t film it now without ripping off Lucas. That says a lot.

Is Buster Crabbe/Flash Gordon the closest you can get? What are the parallels there besides space? I’m talking about real story points. I think you have a blind spot for Kirby and an overactive imagination about the kurosawa effect.

[Miller]

@drad_dog

Please. Those were very cool things to say: Kurosawa, Reifenstahl, etc. . The real truth hurts sometimes. He didn’t want to say he was majorly copping his story from a comic book. It would have been lawsuits time and so uncool to rip off Kirby after he was ripped off for his whole life. It’s not surprising that he admits to vague higher brow inspirings but doesn’t say the real deal thing. We’re all like that. The story went to other places but, as I said, you couldn’t film it now without ripping off Lucas. That says a lot.

His major influence was Republic movie serials. That’s about as low brow as you can get. Dam Busters ain’t exactly high art, either. And if the similarities are so strong that it would have been a slam-dunk lawsuit… well, why did that never happen? Kirby was still alive when Star Wars came out. Why didn’t he sue then?

Is Buster Crabbe/Flash Gordon the closest you can get? What are the parallels there besides space? I’m talking about real story points. I think you have a blind spot for Kirby and an overactive imagination about the kurosawa effect.

Okay, if you don’t think that’s a strong parallel there, explain why yours is better. Seriously, just list some plot points that you think are obvious rip-offs, or detail why you think Darth Vader is like Darkseid, or something. All you’ve done is assert that Lucas stole from Kirby. Can you demonstrate it at all? Or at least point me at someone who can?

[Mahaloth]

@dracoi

I really don’t think that’s a fair criticism.

The Clone Wars cartoons were also clearly targeted at kids, and I much prefer them to the prequel movies. While we still had to put up with yousa and Roger,Roger, I enjoyed watching them.

Take Avatar: The Last Airbender. Aimed a kids, had an epic story about a new hero rising, and it was 10x better than the prequels.

Quality is quality and lack of quality is lack of quality.

The prequels lacked quality.