# So the biggest serial arsonist/killer in America is pacific gas and energy? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 25, 2021, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300 "2021-09-25T00:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/1 "2021-09-25T00:14:27Z")
Wow, I knew they’d been in trouble for some of the wildfires the past few years but 86 counts of involuntary manslaughter ? and there’s even more… note there’s a rather extensive list of everything they’ve pled guilty to that’s bigger than the article its self > **[PG&E charged in California wildfire last year that killed 4](https://www.aol.com/news/pg-e-charged-california-wildfire-175428154-203707918.html)** > > Pacific Gas and Electric was charged Friday with manslaughter and other crimes after its equipment sparked a Northern California wildfire last year that killed four people and destroyed hundreds of homes, prosecutors said. It is the latest action... ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/2 "2021-09-25T02:57:12Z")
Are they really being charged with arson? Can arson be accidental? ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/3 "2021-09-25T03:30:35Z")
well fro9m what I gather they’re getting charged for something akin to involuntary arson due to neglect in a few of the fires because in some places they hadn’t done any equipment maintenance for decades and that actually caused the fires ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/4 "2021-09-25T05:10:41Z")
Does it really matter what they are charged with and what they are convicted with? Really? They will pay a pittance in fines, declare bankruptcy and continue business as they always have. I can remember my dad telling me that you can’t expect much out of Pigs, Goats and Elephants 50 years ago. He’d probably still say the same today. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/5 "2021-09-25T05:28:11Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Are they really being charged with arson? Can arson be accidental? Depends on the state. California defines arson as starting fires “willfully and maliciously,” which wouldn’t apply to PG&E. However, there’s a separate charge for “reckless burning” which potentially could. Other states define arson to include negligent fires. I suspect every state has some provision for punishing people who store opens cans of gasoline in tenement basements. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/6 "2021-09-25T05:42:57Z")
Do you mean the “reckless burning” charge is a separate charge from arson? If so then, yeah–they’re certainly guilty of something other than arson. I didn’t mean to imply I thought they shouldn’t be held responsible for causing the fires. I just wonder whether their misdeeds could be called arson. And “reckless burning” doesn’t seem right either because nobody was burning anything. It wasn’t like a PG&E lit a bonfire at a party that burned out of control or something. > [@nightshadea](#): > > well fro9m what I gather they’re getting charged for something akin to involuntary arson “Involuntary arson”. Is that a thing? Seems to me there can’t be arson without intent but IANAL. [California law:](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN§ionNum=451.) > A person is guilty of arson when he or she willfully and maliciously sets fire to or burns or causes to be burned or who aids, counsels, or procures the burning of, any structure, forest land, or property. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/7 "2021-09-25T06:57:05Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > but 86 counts of involuntary manslaughter ? That’s just gruesome. The entire town of Paradise, Ca., or most of it, burned to the ground, and a great many (84) of the residents with it. IIRC, there was only one road out of town, and in the ensuing rush of refugees there was a traffic accident that blocked the road. ETA: The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in 1911 killed 146 people. Not exactly arson, but the factory management had locked the doors so employees couldn’t sneak out for unauthorized breaks or theft. Things like that were legal in those days. > **[Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire)** > > The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of Manhattan, New York City, on Saturday, March 25, 1911, was the deadliest industrial disaster in the history of the city, and one of the deadliest in U.S. history. The fire caused the deaths of 146 garment workers – 123 women and girls and 23 men – who died from the fire, smoke inhalation, falling, or jumping to their deaths. Most of the victims were recent Italian or Jewish immigrant women and girls aged 14 to 23; The... ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/8 "2021-09-25T15:14:14Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > And “reckless burning” doesn’t seem right either because nobody was burning anything. It wasn’t like a PG&E lit a bonfire at a party that burned out of control or something. [The California statute for reckless burning](https://www.shouselaw.com/ca/defense/penal-code/452/) says: > [@](#): > > A person is guilty of unlawfully causing a fire when he recklessly sets fire to or burns or causes to be burned, any structure, forest land or property. “causes to be burned” applies her, I think. The only question is if what PG&E did was “reckless” or merely negligent: > [@](#): > > A person acts “recklessly” if: > > 1. he is aware that his actions could present a substantial and unjustifiable risk of causing a fire, > 2. he ignores that risk, and > 3. doing so is a gross deviation from how a reasonable person would act in the same situation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/9 "2021-09-25T18:26:39Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > Does it really matter what they are charged with and what they are convicted with? Really? > > They will pay a pittance in fines, declare bankruptcy and continue business as they always have. > > I can remember my dad telling me that you can’t expect much out of Pigs, Goats and Elephants 50 years ago. He’d probably still say the same today. Too late for that. They filed for bankruptcy in 2019 > **[PG&E Bankruptcy](https://www.cpuc.ca.gov/pgechapter11/)** > > On this webpage you will find information about Pacific Gas and Electric Company's (PG&E) Chapter 11 bankruptcy process. And the “serial” in the title is correct. In 2010 they blew up part of San Bruno. > **[San Bruno pipeline explosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion)** > > The San Bruno pipeline explosion occurred at 6:11 pm PDT on September 9, 2010, in San Bruno, California, when a 30-inch (76 cm) diameter steel natural gas pipeline owned by Pacific Gas & Electric exploded into flames in the Crestmoor residential neighborhood 2 miles (3.2 km) west of San Francisco International Airport near Skyline Boulevard and San Bruno Avenue. > The loud roar and shaking led some residents of the area, first responders, and news media to initially believe that it was an ear At ... That happened because they didn’t maintain gas pipes, using money from rate increases for maintenance for profit instead. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/10 "2021-09-25T19:49:32Z")
Yeah, I think it is time CA got as socialist as people think we are, and took over all the public utilities. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/11 "2021-09-25T20:01:31Z")
The gas and electric utilities are among the most highly regulated businesses in the country. If the state of California wanted to make sure these incidents didn’t happen they had the ability to prevent them. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2021, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/12 "2021-09-25T20:10:43Z")
OK, so they can’t declare bankruptcy again yet. What can be done to make the stockholders take responsibility for anything? Nothing is going to change, PG&E isn’t going to fix their lines, they exist to make money, not to provide a safe source of electricity. They will continue to try to burn the state down and more people will die. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/13 "2021-09-27T04:18:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, I think it is time CA got as socialist as people think we are, and took over all the public utilities. well the nice thing is we get our power from the city of lancaster’s solar farm so all sce does is turn it off and on and collect the fees … and they have to ask the city before they turn theirs off ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/14 "2021-09-27T05:00:38Z")
What can be done to make stockholders take responsibility? Nothing. A lot of their of stock is held by various mutual funds that a boatload of people hold in their retirement accounts, e.g. Vanguard, Fidelity, etc. How are those individuals responsible? Why should they be? ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/15 "2021-09-27T05:59:38Z")
California penal code 452 says, “A person is guilty of unlawfully causing a fire when he recklessly sets fire to or burns or causes to be burned, any structure, forest land or property.” It defines different punishments for different circumstances: [Law section](https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN§ionNum=452). This is separate from the several different types of arson that are defined in the California penal code. Arson in California requires intent and malice. BTW, the name of the company is Pacific Gas and Electric, not Pacific Gas and Energy. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/16 "2021-09-27T13:47:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yeah, I think it is time CA got as socialist as people think we are, and took over all the public utilities. Absolutely. Every time this happens (Og help us), PG&E just declares bankruptcy and history repeats. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/17 "2021-09-27T15:59:50Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > OK, so they can’t declare bankruptcy again yet. What can be done to make the stockholders take responsibility for anything? I would think we need to get the _executives_ to take responsibility first. ---
**Author:** ![JaneDoe42](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/janedoe42/32/14104_2.png) [@JaneDoe42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JaneDoe42)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/18 "2021-09-27T16:33:20Z")
That could be helpful, but it won’t happen either. It doesn’t matter what happens, nothing will change. PG&E will keep starting fires and killing people. The money won’t stop coming in, nobody will be held accountable and the people left homeless because they have been burned out will be homeless with no hope of getting any sort of compensation for what was taken from them. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/19 "2021-09-27T17:38:19Z")
**Jane** isn’t so much a “Glass Half-empty” Gal. More like a _“Smash that damn Glass is the fireplace and grind the shards into someone’s eyes!”_ type person . 😄 ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2021, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300/20 "2021-09-27T18:07:18Z")
Not sure where to put this, so I’ll just lay it here: The Arsonist who is charged with igniting the Fawn fire… wait for it… _…started the fire while boiling Bear urine, to drink it._ [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-biggest-serial-arsonist-killer-in-america-is-pacific-gas-and-energy/951300.md?page=2)