# So the Censu bureau wants me to fill out a form... **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 19, 2007, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130 "2007-08-19T08:52:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/121 "2007-08-23T20:24:22Z")
So aren’t there changes to the Constitution that allow the expanded use of the Census? ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/122 "2007-08-23T20:30:20Z")
In fact, the introduction to the Census 2000 form (starting on page [I-1 of this pdf](http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/02a_in.pdf)) tells why changes were made from the original reason for the Census over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/123 "2007-08-23T20:30:38Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] That’s me! Although, I’m kind of a contrary person… [/QUOTE] No you’re not! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/124 "2007-08-23T20:31:51Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] No you’re not! 😃 [/QUOTE] Well, sure, you wouldn’t think so…I’ve been agreeing with you all day long! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/125 "2007-08-23T20:36:07Z")
[QUOTE=Sean Factotum] In fact, the introduction to the Census 2000 form (starting on page [I-1 of this pdf](http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/02a_in.pdf)) tells why changes were made from the original reason for the Census over the years. [/QUOTE] This basically answers your previous question. This document gives a lot of explanation for why they have added the long form, but none of them really impress me. I’m aware that they think the information is being collected for the public good, but again, it doesn’t matter what the reason is. ---
**Author:** ![Sean\_Factotum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Sean\_Factotum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sean_Factotum)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/126 "2007-08-23T20:45:10Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] This basically answers your previous question. This document gives a lot of explanation for why they have added the long form, but none of them really impress me. I’m aware that they think the information is being collected for the public good, but again, it doesn’t matter what the reason is. [/QUOTE] Well if you just don’t care, then I guess there’s nothing I can do to instill a sense of basic civic duty. Sorry to have wasted your time. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/127 "2007-08-23T20:48:02Z")
[QUOTE=Sean Factotum] Well if you just don’t care, then I guess there’s nothing I can do to instill a sense of basic civic duty. Sorry to have wasted your time. [/QUOTE] To be quite honest, I’m kind of amused that filling out the census form is what passes for civic duty these days. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/128 "2007-08-23T21:28:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sean Factotum] Well if you just don’t care, then I guess there’s nothing I can do to instill a sense of basic civic duty. Sorry to have wasted your time. [/QUOTE] There ya go, **Sarah**. Question what you consider an inappropriate extension of governmental authority makes you downright un-American. You are a very very bad person! Here, have some Kool-Ade! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2007, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/129 "2007-08-23T22:16:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sean Factotum] So you’ve got to ask why it isn’t being done easier and cheaper. Because this is the cheapest way to get the info they need to run the country. [/QUOTE] So, you’re saying that the fact that the government does X proves that X is the cheapest and most efficient method? What color is the sky on your planet? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/130 "2007-08-24T00:23:54Z")
[QUOTE=Sean Factotum] Well, if that was the case, wouldn’t the government be doing just that instead of sending out this hideously expensive forms and staffing to get that info? So you’ve got to ask why it isn’t being done easier and cheaper. Because this is the cheapest way to get the info they need to run the country. [/QUOTE] No, the reason the census is done by actual count instead of statistical sampling is because that is exactly what is required by the constitution. (Statistical sampling might actually be cheaper.) There was a proposal after the 2000 census to use statistical sampling to correct what was believed to be inaccuracies in the census count, but it was ultimately rejected. The Census Bureau estimated that the population was undercounted by three million, consisting mostly of poor people, minorities and children and mostly in cities. (Cite: New York Times, U.S. Census Bureau Rejects Revision to Nation’s Tally, March 2, 2001.) ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/131 "2007-08-24T00:51:40Z")
[QUOTE=Dewey Finn] No, the reason the census is done by actual count instead of statistical sampling is because that is exactly what is required by the constitution. (Statistical sampling might actually be cheaper.) [/QUOTE] The actual count is done by actual counting, which is required by the Constitution, as you say. The long form is statistical sampling. It is the long form I have an objection to, not the regular census. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/132 "2007-08-24T00:52:49Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] There ya go, **Sarah**. Question what you consider an inappropriate extension of governmental authority makes you downright un-American. You are a very very bad person! Here, have some Kool-Ade! [/QUOTE] There’s really no end to the depths of my depravity. ---
**Author:** ![mack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mack)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/133 "2007-08-24T01:15:09Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The purpose of the census is to count the number of people. That’s it. [/QUOTE] FWIW the scope of the census has changed since 1787: > [@](#): > > The Secretary shall, in the year 1980 and every 10 years thereafter, take a decennial census of population as of the first day of April of such year, which date shall be known as the “decennial census date”, **in such form and content as he may determine, including the use of sampling procedures and special surveys.** In connection with any such census, the Secretary is authorized to obtain such other census information as necessary. > […] > As used in this section, “census of population” means a **census of population, housing, and matters relating to population and housing**. Bolding mine. > **[13 U.S. Code § 141 - Population and other census information](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/13/141)** ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/134 "2007-08-24T02:57:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The actual count is done by actual counting, which is required by the Constitution, as you say. The long form is statistical sampling. It is the long form I have an objection to, not the regular census. [/QUOTE] Ok. 1) Help me out. How does a market researcher construct a stratified sample _without the underlying population data_? Somehow, I don’t think the number of people in each Census tract --which is all you want to measure if I understand another post of yours correctly-- will help us here. 1. The long form is sent out to 1 out of 6 Americans. Sure that’s a sample, but it’s way different than what Gallup does. If I’m correct, users of stratified samples are basically screwed without the Census. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/135 "2007-08-24T03:16:11Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] **Sarah** - somehow I suspect you are one of them troublemakers who refuse to give your phone number or zip code to store clerks when conducting a cash transaction, even if they ask nicely and promise cross their hearts that they will never do anything improper with it. Come on - what could it hurt? [/QUOTE] Actually, I’m one of those people. And I sure hope that Dinsdale isn’t your real name, if you have the same take on privacy that I do. Judging from your SDMB bio, you probably feel comfortable disclosing more information online than I do. I’m willing to give the census my information, because I don’t fear the black helicopters and _because there are substantial penalties for using the data in such a way so as to identify particular individuals_. [“The penalties for violating confidentiality were gradually strengthened until, in 1919, unauthorized disclosure was declared a felony.”](http://www.epic.org/privacy/hew1973report/appenc.htm) Cite from the Electronic Privacy Information Center. Currently the penalty for wrongful disclosure peaks at **5 years in prison** plus a fine. > [@sarafina](#): > > To be quite honest, I’m kind of amused that filling out the census form is what passes for civic duty these days. Oh, it’s a minor duty. Trivial really. One with inconsequential risk. On the benefit side it helps us fight ignorance and advance human welfare: see the CDC post and others above. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/136 "2007-08-24T03:32:39Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] In recent years, as folks are scrambling over each other to toss aside their privacy and civil liberties, I’m feeling more and more out of touch with my countrypeople. And it REALLY sucks when you feel strongly about something you consider intrinsic to much that is best about our country, and get branded unPatriotic for those beliefs. [/QUOTE] Gotta choose your battles, bub. I find myself visiting [http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/](http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/) to keep tabs on the fight against governmental corruption. But my personal opinion is that the public spirited Founding Fathers had the proper take. > [@](#): > > To the statistics-minded generation of the Founding Fathers,9 the skimpy data of the first census must have been disappointing. [Thomas] Jefferson’s dissatisfaction is evident in the memorial regarding plans for the Census of 1800, which he sent to Congress as President of the American Philosophical Society. It called for “a more detailed view of the inhabitants,” and suggested the inclusion of refined age groupings > > ``` > from whence may be calculated the ordinary duration of life in these States, the chances of life for each epoch thereof, and the ratio of the increase of their population; firmly believing that the result will be sensibly different from what is presented in the tables of other countries . . . .10 > > ``` > > The memorial suggested the age intervals that might be used, and urged that data be collected on nativity and occupation. … Sorting our confidentiality issues took some time though: I understand that the first substantial expansion of data gathering began with the 1830 Census. [http://www.epic.org/privacy/hew1973report/appenc.htm](http://www.epic.org/privacy/hew1973report/appenc.htm) Heh. Later: “The detailed economic inquiries were not received with equanimity by the populace, especially in rural regions.” ---
**Author:** ![shimmery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@shimmery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shimmery)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/137 "2007-08-24T10:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] There ya go, **Sarah**. Question what you consider an inappropriate extension of governmental authority makes you downright un-American. You are a very very bad person! Here, have some Kool-Ade! [/QUOTE] This is a pretty cheap shot. Nobody here is saying it’s particularly “American” or “patriotic” to fill out the census. Only that it fulfills an important responsibility to the community, as it would anywhere that human beings live in society with one another. Doing one’s civic duty is not an idea that America invented, and IMHO citizens in a lot of other places do a much better job of it. Your first post in this thread actually gave me a lot of pause. I, too, am highly disturbed by the provisions of the Patriot Act, etc., and certainly do not believe that one should have no objections to handing over info so long as one has nothing to hide. I’ve been raised to be deeply suspicious of authority. On the other hand, that doesn’t justify (in my view) being suspicious of government - not **our government** specifically, but the broader concept of “government” - simply because it’s the government. Feel free to disagree with me here (as I expect you may), but I believe that, in the most basic sense, government (especially a representative democratic government) exists to better provide for the needs of its citizens. You know, “of the people, by the people, for the people.” While I don’t trust this particular administration as far as I can throw it, I also don’t believe the good folks at the Census Bureau are power-mad villains set on abusing my personal info. But I guess you do. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/138 "2007-08-24T11:27:53Z")
[QUOTE=shimmery] This is a pretty cheap shot. Nobody here is saying it’s particularly “American” or “patriotic” to fill out the census. [/QUOTE] I respectfully differ, but the post I was responding to (and quoted) suggested that my position indicated a lack of “basic civil duty”. I’m one of those crazy folks who think that pointing out governmental excesses and abuses may be among the highest forms of civil duty. And no, I’m not antipathetic towards the federal government. Heck, they’ve been paying my wages for over 2 decades now! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![shimmery](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@shimmery](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shimmery)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/139 "2007-08-24T11:34:47Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] I respectfully differ, but the post I was responding to (and quoted) suggested that my position indicated a lack of “basic civil duty”. I’m one of those crazy folks who think that pointing out governmental excesses and abuses may be among the highest forms of civil duty. [/QUOTE] I’m one of those crazy folks, too (as I pointed out in my first post in this thread)! All I’m saying (in the rest of the paragraph you quoted from) is that “not doing your civic duty” doesn’t mean “un-American.” I don’t believe the people who expressed the idea that “those who refuse to fill out the census are refusing to do their civic duty” would agree with people who say that protesting the Patriot Act (for example) is un-American. Well, I certainly wouldn’t, anyway. And I think it’s unfair for you to lump these two different sorts of arguments together. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130/140 "2007-08-24T14:52:48Z")
[QUOTE=mack] FWIW the scope of the census has changed since 1787: Bolding mine. > **[13 U.S. Code § 141 - Population and other census information](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/13/141)** [/QUOTE] Yes, it has changed, clearly…but IMO, it is not Constitutional. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-censu-bureau-wants-me-to-fill-out-a-form/416130.md?page=8)