It’s very depressing to see so many dopers willing to give up their privacy for a block of government cheese, with seemingly little concern about how that trust might be abused by the government. Governments have a long history of collecting information for one purpose and using it for another, when expedient, ignoring any promises made during collection. The US government has difficulty obeying its own rules, as demonstrated by the abuse of National Security Letters by the FBI.
We’re going to have to agree to disagree on this. I have found Bureau of Labor Statistics products quite useful in my own work, and if revealing my shocking fondness for Penzey’s spices is what it takes to keep them producing, so be it.
Ohh brother. We all want better government and better responsiveness, but we don’t want to give people anything to work with. It’s the census people. That’s all it is. Thanks for the link on how Hitler and the Nazis used the census though. Thoses X-files reruns are really taking root.
The government is not supposed to be using random samples for the purpose of census taking (i.e. “How many people live here?” OK (writes down number); next…")
As for the purposes of market research, businesses manage to do an adequate job all the time without having the power to compel cooperations.
The whole basis of the American Republic is that the government only gets a strictly limited range of power to “work with”.
Having been annoyed by the long form in the past year, what I found they will do if you don’t fill it out is send you a new one with a vaguely threatening letter. If, after that, you still do not send it in they will call you and ask for the information over the phone.
I found they were very amenable to accepting a lot of “I have no idea” answers.
Where was that written? And on second thought, what the hell does that mean? The Constitution requires a census. And of all the power the government has at the local, state and federal level, this is some of the most benign power it has. The government is like any other organization. The shit in shit out rule applies. I’ve never viewed the census information requested all that threatening. Unlike others, and perhaps it’s because I work for the government, I believe that most government employees, and therefore the agencies they comprise, try to do the best they can for the American people. Clearly YMMV.
I was sent the form last time. I refused to fill it out. If they had sent me a bill, I would have paid the $100. That’s the price you have to pay sometimes to keep the gummint out of your business.
Hi. I’m the Government. I really do need to know how many toilets you have.
Actually, I’m only a teeny tiny piece of the government. Just one person. I work at the CDC. My job is to understand disparities in health, and how and why they vary by place. It’s a pretty cool job.
A health disparity is when one group of people come out worse on some disease compared to another group of people. Heart disease or cancer are good examples. There are lots of ways to find disparities - you can look at race: black americans generally do worse with both of those compared to white americans. You can look at gender. You can look at where people live: in the south, people have a lot more strokes compared to people in the north.
We know those things. We’re trying to figure out why. Some of it has to do with class. Some of it has to do with environment. Some of it has to do with income. Some of it (I think - for some diseases) has to do with crowding. One way I measure crowding involves the number or rooms in a residence, the number of occupants in a residence, and the number of toilets in a residence.
The ONLY way that we can get information about the things that we believe cause health disparities is by asking people. The way we do it on a National basis is the Census (now replaced with the American Community Survey - which is what I believe the OP received).
We want to eliminate disparities in health. Really - it is one of the 2 main overarching aims of the entire CDC. But we can’t do it if we don’t have the information we need to put into the statistics in order to get a significant result that we can publish and then take to the policy people who can then begin to make a difference!
So please fill out your big nasty form. Honestly and truthfully. Because I’m trying to do some good and I need your help.
I guess you could potentially get in trouble, but it would be pretty damned minor trouble. I think the max fine for not filling out a Census form is $100. And the likelihood of their trying to fine you is very remote: the last thing they want is to create an excuse for people to be mad at them.
Out of professional curiosity, if you still have the form, can you tell me if it says what survey it is (e.g. American Community Survey, Current Population Survey, National Survey of College Graduates, etc.) or, failing that, what sorts of questions it asked besides the usual name, age, sex, race, ethnicity?
ETA: The reference to Title 13 you mention isn’t about their being able to require you to fill out the form; it’s about the legal requirement that they keep the info you provide all safe and secure, so that nobody can say, “this data came from this person.” The Census Bureau can’t share Title 13 data even with other government agencies.
see this is a spectacular response, one that even makes me go “Hmmmmmm”
I would love to see a way to get you that info that doesnt involve a living crapload of personal info that I have no interest in giving to anyone. I seriously think this is a subject that will simply be “do it because its helpful and you are supposed to” or “get the hell out of my f-n life already” I will also admit that if I had even a shred of trust that this info wouldnt be misused I would probably fill it out without question.
I wonder what its like wiping my ass with a hundred dollar bill…
But just as herownself has (in your eyes) a justifiable need for particular piece of information, each of the other questions on the Census fulfills a specific purpose for a federal agency. Here is a press release from the Census that mentions that
At first, in this thread, you picked out “number of toilets” as a piece of information that seemed comically irrelevant to you, yet you now admit that even this seemingly ridiculous question actually provides important information on public health. Do you really have so little faith in the government that each question has to be personally justified to you?
Also, regarding mks57’s links re: Arab Americans, I just want to point out that according to the Times article that his own first link links to (Times Select, unfortunately), the info given to Homeland Security was a tabulation of Arab-American residents and their countries of origin by ZIP code… still admittedly realllllly sketchy but still not quite the same as handing over a list of names.
(by the way, herownself, I find your job intriguing! Would it be okay if I sent you an email or PM with a few questions?)
I’m sure we will continue to disagree, which is fine. Of course, I’m not the one threatening you with fines should you fail to act as I prefer!
I would never presume to deny that the gov’t would indeed find it useful to have the information they request all wrapped up in one handy package. And I’m sure many people would consider themselves as benefitting from the gov’t having such info. But apparently I view my privacy in a different manner than you.
This will be an extreme and imperfect analogy, but I’m sure the police would find it useful if they could simply enter my home anytime they want and conduct warrantless searches. And I can imagine folk saying I should have no objection if I have nothing to hide, and arguing that some increased safety would result benefitting the entire community. But I’d still oppose it.
Presumptions of privacy and anonymity among the things I value most highly. With every passing month I appear to be more and more in the minority.
I think in today’s world we have become inured to the tremendous amounts of information about us that is gathered in various sourcs and subsequently shared among diverse entities. To some extent, this information gathering is a necessary aspect of participating in modern society. But my preference is to provide limited information to limited entities, and only when they establish a clear need to know. My strong personal preference is to not compile such wide-ranging economic and lifestyle information in one document that can then be shared among whom I know not.
BTW, just to illustrate how consistently wrongheaded I am, I also find myself on the short side of just about every recent S.Ct. decision concerning privacy, Real ID, airport security, most drug testing, countless aspects of the Patriot Act, etc, ad infinitum.
Critical1 - I know how you feel. I joined the ACLU when they started collecting data on people at the airports. But that’s individual data. The best the Census gives out is in a group called the Census Block, which is designed to contain on average several hundred people. We can’t see YOU. But we do count on you. (little survey joke there …)
And most folks use Census Tracts, which contain several (as in ~4) thousand people. We study populations. Only MDs study individuals - and then only when you get sick.
And the left-handed-spanner people rely on dumb-asses answering the phone and taking marketing surveys. Not my freaking problem.
and Shimmery - any time.
Dinsdale, for what it’s worth, I totally agree with you. I don’t understand why data such as herownself needs at work couldn’t be collected through voluntary means. I work in market research, and see it being done every day. I, too, resent the violation of privacy, and I do not see any reason for this kind of information to be collected via the census.
In recent years, as folks are scrambling over each other to toss aside their privacy and civil liberties, I’m feeling more and more out of touch with my countrypeople. And it REALLY sucks when you feel strongly about something you consider intrinsic to much that is best about our country, and get branded unPatriotic for those beliefs.
Can anyone show any instance in the last 65 years of an individual’s census data being released to another branch of the government, used in any judicial proceeding, or released to the public, before the 72-year privacy period is over, without the subject’s consent?
It doesn’t matter! That is not the point. The point is, it’s not their business. The purpose of the census is to count the number of people. That’s it.
