# So the restaurant industry doesn't like paying minimum wage? Too bad, so sad! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933 "2017-04-06T22:06:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/21 "2017-04-07T19:11:05Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > Or do you report your gifts to your employer so he can dock your paycheck by the amount of the gift? Well, no, because gifts of that sort would not be subject to tax withholding. Not reporting the “gifts” that servers receive would also be tax evasion. ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/22 "2017-04-07T19:14:12Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Not to justify the practice of not paying a minimum wage, but most restaurants operate on relatively slim margins while servicing large debt from startup costs for years, and are reliant upon various corner cutting to show consistent profitability. Passing the additional expense of raising wages off to the customer is often not appealing because customers willl frequently balk at increases of a couple of dollars. The good answer is to raise prices according to the need to pay minimum wage and discourage tipping to offset, but tipping culture is so entrenched in the United States that the result wouldn’t be palletable to either customers or waitstaff (who want both minimum wage and tips). > > However, I predict this issue will soon be addressed by replacing waitstaff with autonomous servers with display touchscreen faces showing whimsical pictures of kittens playing with shoelaces, and former waitstaff will have to find jobs mining phlebotinum for SyFy and Netflix science fiction conspiracy thrillers. So, everybody wins, especially the robots, who are soon to be the only sentient beings that matter. > > Stranger One one hand, this doesn’t make any sense, restaurants in Europe where there is no tipping open and prosper all the time. On the other hand, who would you rather be served by? Somebody who makes $9 an hour or somebody who can make as much as $20 an hour **depending on how well they serve you.** ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/23 "2017-04-07T19:38:37Z")
Europe does not have an obligate tipping culture (though in many nations patrons do often leave a modest tip in high end restaurants for exceptions service) and so the existing food prices reflect the payment of a higher wage (which in Western Europe is significantly higher than the highest state mandated minimum wage in the united states). For the United States, raising minimum wages would force most mid-grade restaurants to increase the price of menu items in direct proportion; a $12.00 dish would become $14.40, assuming a 20% increase. In reality, the increases would probably need to be higher than the nominal tip rate because waiters during busy lunch and dinner periods are pulling in 15%-20% of the menu item price from four or five tables simultaneously, and likely getting two or three sets of tables during the dinner hours. Price increases to pay something like $15/hr wages in both on- and off-traffic times for the entire staff including cooks, dishwashers, stews, busters, hosts, and barbacks would probably increase costs by ~50-60%, which will definitely result in consumers eating out less. For a business that is struggling to pay off a six figure loan and interest in startup costs plus dealing with food price fluctuations, that may well break the bank. Lower end businesses, and especially fast food, will turn toward greater automation to reduce labor costs, and those jobs will go away. None of this is actually an argument against a liveable minimum wage–which I support–but these are the realistic consequences. Frankly, most of this is happening anyway, and increasing wages will just accelerate the process of automation and elimination of marginally profitable restaurants. We’re going to have to deal with there being fewer service positions for unskilled workers, period, and raising the minimum wage doesn’t really address that problem in any meaningful way. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/24 "2017-04-07T20:14:04Z")
The diner may consider his/her tip a gift, but the server doesn’t have that option. My major concern is that the new minimums are inadequate and increase too slowly. If people use the existence of this law to quit tipping now, I think lots of servers will end up worse off. Another problem is that Maine’s few high-end restaurants tend to be seasonal: even those that employ a minimal staff through the cold months aren’t generating income and there are no customers to tip anybody. This is a reflection of Maine’s economy as a whole: almost entirely dependent on 3 months of tourism and the exploitation of underpriced, dwindling and polluting natural resources. It’s a shame. Pretty state, kind, incredibly patient and hardworking people, and an economy that has been dead since Ken Curtis was governor. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/25 "2017-04-07T20:25:48Z")
The minimum wage laws in relation to tips varies from state to state. In Oregon a restaurant worker will make the minimum wage and the tips are on top of that. They are expected to pay income taxes on the tips in addition to the withholding from their normal pay. I am not sure of the details but I think you can keep a log of your tips or pay a flat rate. Point Of Sale machines in use almost everywhere now have eliminated most of the personal tip tracking needed. So the tip income is not really under-the-table, it is taxable income. A good customer service employee type person can make their 20k per year minimum wage and another 10-15k in tips. I personally know a bartender who makes in the 35-40k per year income, including tips. I think that states that reduce the minimum wage due to “expected” tips are screwing the worker. Last time I checked, which was a few minutes ago, there are many, many, restaurants, bars, brew pubs and other food services in Oregon that are doing fine. The whole concept that minimum wage laws, tipping to reduce the minimum wage, is a lie. I am normally a fiscally conservative, socially liberal person. And this focus on tips in just wrong. It is punishing a successful person. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/26 "2017-04-07T20:40:02Z")
In Oregon there’s no different minimum wage for tipped employees–everyone gets paid $9.75/hr (going up to $10.25 on July first this year) and yes, we tip as well. The cost of a restaurant meal has gone up some in the past few years but nothing egregious. A recent article in the Oregonian (I think) pointed out that servers in busy neighborhood dive bars and restaurants can and often do make as much as high end Intel employees and y’know what? I’m fine with that. I think your average wait person deserves to make $85-100K per year way more than most business executives do. They don’t hurt anyone and they make us happy by bringing us delicious food. I pay the restaurant a fair price for the meal and I also contribute to good servers making a damned nice living, which suits me right down to the ground. This country needs a big percentage of jobs that pay really well but don’t require a person to take on tens of thousands of dollars in student loan debt just to qualify to apply to earn those big bucks. If we can’t have manufacturing jobs that pay well then we can make food service an avenue that rewards those who aren’t afraid of working hard but who can’t afford or are unsuited to college education. Those who thinks wait staff don’t “deserve” to make that much money are free to stay home, cook their own meals and congratulate themselves on their moral and financial purity. I’m sure the rest of us won’t miss them a bit as we enjoy our meals. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/27 "2017-04-07T22:58:02Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Those who thinks wait staff don’t “deserve” to make that much money are free to stay home, cook their own meals and congratulate themselves on their moral and financial purity. I’m sure the rest of us won’t miss them a bit as we enjoy our meals. What I think “morally” doesn’t much affect my behavior. Personally, I don’t think anyone deserves anything that they’ve not contracted to receive for services offered. Per se, no one “deserves” anything; but if they add value to an enterprise then market pressure will ensure that they are compensated commensurate to that added value. So I will continue to eat out, thank you very much, and despite my opinion about whether anyone “deserves” or doesn’t anything, I will continue to tip my rounded-up 20% on the total-including-tax. Condemning me to stay home will hurt these people’s averages. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/28 "2017-04-07T23:51:08Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > Personally, I don’t think anyone deserves anything that they’ve not contracted to receive for services offered. Per se, no one “deserves” anything; but if they add value to an enterprise then market pressure will ensure that they are compensated commensurate to that added value. Personally, I regard obliviousness to power imbalances in economic relationships as a moral failing. Just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/29 "2017-04-07T23:56:15Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I find it bizarre that waiters don’t get paid full minimum wage. So far as I know, in Canada there are no tiers to minimum wage like that. This is a very misunderstood thing. I won’t attempt to justify it, but when people complain, they insinuate that this means they will gross 2.13x8 = $17.04 for an 8 hour shift without tips. Not so, the \*\*minimum \*\*anyone earns is the federal minimum wage (many states are higher), or $58 for the shift. If they fail to meet the $7.25 minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference. Now, if you do get lots of tips, the wage paid directly from the employer is $2.13, but they are making more than 7.25-2.13 = $5.12 per hour in tips. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2017, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/30 "2017-04-07T23:57:01Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > I personally know a bartender who makes in the 35-40k per year income, including tips. Here in podunk little Tallahassee, I know a bartender at a chain restaurant who makes in the neighborhood of $50-60K. According to him, he’s not an anomaly and is actually looking for a job at the ‘hot’ bar where he expects to make much more. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/31 "2017-04-08T00:08:13Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > We had a referendum in Maine on the minimum wage last election. The referendum question passed by popular vote. > > It raised minimum wage to $9 per hour and $5 for tipped employees. Each year thereafter, the normal minimum wage will go up by $1 until it reaches $12 per hour, and thenceforward will be indexed to inflation. The tipped minimum wage is also going to increase by $1 per year, until it matches the normal minimum. ([Cite](http://legislature.maine.gov/legis/statutes/26/title26sec664.html) for the law as it is now written). > > It has only been law for a few months, and there are those popping up who are already trying to alter or repeal parts of it. The biggest bone of contention is the tip credit. The restaurant industry is pissed off that it will not be allowed to dock their servers’ wages for gifts they receive while on the job anymore. They can go piss up a rope for all I care. > > Fuck employers who think they shouldn’t have to pay a decent wage. And fuck any member of the legislature who thinks it’s okay to override the citizen’s initiative. And fuck the very notion of a tip credit! My employer doesn’t get to dock my pay anytime someone gifts me money. Why should restauranteurs get to do so with waiters? Minimum wage is stupid and only appeals to the stupid and to those who can exploit the stupid electorally. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/32 "2017-04-08T00:26:17Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Minimum wage is stupid and only appeals to the stupid and to those who can exploit the stupid electorally. Oh Enlightened One, please lavish more of your sage wit and wisdom upon us. We beg your erudite knowledge and pay tribute to your scholarship in all things economic. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/33 "2017-04-08T00:39:21Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > No, it’s all true. This is why Minnesota, which doesn’t allow employers to dodge their fiscal responsibilities through tip credits has no restaurants at all. Say what? [TripAdvisor: Restaurants in Minnesota](https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g28944-Minnesota.html) You’re going to have to provide a cite for that statement. Or at least some clarification. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/34 "2017-04-08T00:42:47Z")
> [@Projammer](#): > > Say what? > > [TripAdvisor: Restaurants in Minnesota](https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g28944-Minnesota.html) > > You’re going to have to provide a cite for that statement. Or at least some clarification. I really hope you are adding to the sarcasm so readily apparent in that statement, and not taking it at face value. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/35 "2017-04-08T00:45:47Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > This is a very misunderstood thing. I won’t attempt to justify it, but when people complain, they insinuate that this means they will gross 2.13x8 = $17.04 for an 8 hour shift without tips. Not so, the \*\*minimum \*\*anyone earns is the federal minimum wage (many states are higher), or $58 for the shift. If they fail to meet the $7.25 minimum wage, the employer is required to make up the difference. Now, if you do get lots of tips, the wage paid directly from the employer is $2.13, but they are making more than 7.25-2.13 = $5.12 per hour in tips. Honest question - is the employer required to make up the difference on a ‘per shift’ basis, or a ‘per pay period’ basis? ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/36 "2017-04-08T00:47:08Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Business owners that can’t simultaneously turn a profit and treat their employees well have quite a difficult time accepting the fact that they aren’t the genius businessmen and women that they’ve fancied themselves to be. If you can’t pay your employees a living wage, you shouldn’t be in business. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/37 "2017-04-08T00:52:33Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > If you can’t pay your employees a living wage, you shouldn’t be in business. Or automate, and then no one gets a job there. Winning!!! ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/38 "2017-04-08T00:55:22Z")
> [@CoastalMaineiac](#): > > I don’t care what the IRS calls it; it’s functionally the same as a gift. It may be socially expected of me, but so was chipping in $10 with my co-workers to get my boss a gift at Christmas time. > Because nobody has a right to disagree with a business practice unless they run that particular business? You don’t have to be a restaurant owner to recognize when people are getting screwed. > > Or do you report your gifts to your employer so he can dock your paycheck by the amount of the gift? The old “why dont you go up on the mound and pitch if you think its so easy” argument. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/39 "2017-04-08T00:59:27Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Oh Enlightened One, please lavish more of your sage wit and wisdom upon us. We beg your erudite knowledge and pay tribute to your scholarship in all things economic. > > Stranger I will. 🙂 > [@russian\_heel](#): > > If you can’t pay your employees a living wage, you shouldn’t be in business. > Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That’s meaningless feel goodism/virtue signaling that results in nothing good for the aggregate. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Or automate, and then no one gets a job there. Winning!!! Minimum wage advocates are too dumb or too crooked to recognize that. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/40 "2017-04-08T01:19:27Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Honest question - is the employer required to make up the difference on a ‘per shift’ basis, or a ‘per pay period’ basis? I don’t know, but I assume the latter. And of course it helps little if your employer is shady. FWIW, Some of the per capita richest countries in the world (most or all of the Scandinavian countries) don’t have a minimum wage. I don’t think that’s an argument against it of course, I’m pretty agnostic on this issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933.md?page=3)