# So the restaurant industry doesn't like paying minimum wage? Too bad, so sad! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 6, 2017, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933 "2017-04-06T22:06:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/41 "2017-04-08T01:23:22Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I don’t know if you’ve worked in the food service industry, but it is an industry with inherently low profit margins, high waste and theft costs, significant liability and maintenance expenses, a lot of personnel turnover, and is sensitive to both fluctuations in food costs and consumer spending while being relatively inflexible about adjusting menu prices. Most mid-range, sit down restaurants make their profits on alcohol sales with food being essentially a loss leader, while fast food relies on volume to make up for tiny margins and high end is dependent upon reputation and cachet. > > I don’t think anybody in the restaurant business considers themselves a “genius businessman/woman”; they do it because they have a passion for food service despite the hardships, or because it is the business that they know best. Or, it’s a cover for their blue meth distribution ring. > > Stranger Not only is the restaurant business risky the barrier to entry is low with a lot of stupid people with no idea what they are getting into starting restaurants based on really dumb ideas. Maybe knowing ahead of time now you’ll actually have to pay your staff a jivable base salary will weed out a lot of these jokers. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/42 "2017-04-08T01:27:12Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > Honest question - is the employer required to make up the difference on a ‘per shift’ basis, or a ‘per pay period’ basis? Technically, it’s not that they’re to"make up the difference", they are only allowed to claim a tip credit against tips actually received. The only way a tipped person gets less than minimum wage is if the employer is fraudulently claiming tips that never were received. What **Translucent Daydream** described would be big time illegal. (Tip sharing can only be based on actual tips, not a percentage of sales.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/43 "2017-04-08T01:27:29Z")
I always like a waiter with jive. I fully support jivable waiters. ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/44 "2017-04-08T01:31:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Or automate, and then no one gets a job there. Winning!!! So we should all just accept jobs as fruit pickers for 50 cents an hour an accept living in cardboard boxes by a campfire because the robots are coming? BTW accelerated replacement of labor by machine has been going on since the 18th century and unemployment is still only 4-6% so there goes that narrative. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/45 "2017-04-08T01:40:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Or automate, and then no one gets a job there. Winning!!! It’s a good thing when people bypass reasoned argument and just go straight to the threat. Saves time. This one is a favorite of fast-food czars with a history of illegally underpaying their employees anyhow, so it’s good to know that it’s completely [bogus](https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/26/seattles-minimum-wage-rise-is-reducing-employment-in-seattle-i-was-right-in-predicting-this/#706023207f4c). ---
**Author:** ![russian\_heel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f05b48/32.png) [@russian\_heel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/russian_heel)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/46 "2017-04-08T02:01:11Z")
> [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > It’s a good thing when people bypass reasoned argument and just go straight to the threat. Saves time. This one is a favorite of fast-food czars with a history of illegally underpaying their employees anyhow, so it’s good to know that it’s completely [bogus](https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/07/26/seattles-minimum-wage-rise-is-reducing-employment-in-seattle-i-was-right-in-predicting-this/#706023207f4c). Then there’s the business owner with a corporate jet, 3 houses and a collection of Italian sportscars scaring his employees by announcing that if the Democrat candidate wins the White House, he’ll fire them all. I don’t advocate for or think there will be a communist revolution in our country, but if there is hopefully these people will be the first up against the wall. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/47 "2017-04-08T02:07:48Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > So we should all just accept jobs as fruit pickers for 50 cents an hour an accept living in cardboard boxes by a campfire because the robots are coming? BTW accelerated replacement of labor by machine has been going on since the 18th century and unemployment is still only 4-6% so there goes that narrative. Exactly. If the only thing keeping people from automating waitstaff in 2017 is the price, well, if $15/hour is the threshold in 2017, tech prices will always go down, so it’s likely to be $13/hr in a couple years, and $10/hr a couple years after that, etc. If price is the only factor, then it’s going to happen soon anyway. As automation marches on, one of two things will happen. A) Like every other “revolution” before it, for every field that goes away, another employment field is created, or B) Our entire employment paradigm get blown up and we have to rethink it all. In neither of those cases do minimum wage amounts really matter. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/48 "2017-04-08T02:12:01Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > So we should all just accept jobs as fruit pickers for 50 cents an hour an accept living in cardboard boxes by a campfire because the robots are coming? BTW accelerated replacement of labor by machine has been going on since the 18th century and unemployment is still only 4-6% so there goes that narrative. Yes, because that it is the only other option besides your original pronouncement about a “living wage”. :roll eyes: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/49 "2017-04-08T02:14:26Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > If you can’t pay your employees a living wage, you shouldn’t be in business. > [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](#): > > It’s a good thing when people bypass reasoned argument and just go straight to the threat. Saves time. Agreed, per the post quoted above yours. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/50 "2017-04-08T02:35:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Agreed, per the post quoted above yours. You are a smart and fair man, so far as I have been able to see. I’m assuming you’re just having a bad day. “You shouldn’t be in business if you can’t pay your employees a living wage” is not a threat, any more than “You need to be able to pay your rent” or “You have to pay taxes” is a threat. On the other hand, when businesses announce that they will lay people off if a minimum wage or some other regulation is passed, _that’s_ a threat. See, it promises an undesirable outcome, over which it exercises complete control, in retaliation against legislation it doesn’t want. Fortunately, as the Forbes article I cited says, it’s a lie as well as a threat. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/51 "2017-04-08T03:04:31Z")
> [@russian\_heel](#): > > So we should all just accept jobs as fruit pickers for 50 cents an hour an accept living in cardboard boxes by a campfire because the robots are coming? BTW accelerated replacement of labor by machine has been going on since the 18th century and unemployment is still only 4-6% so there goes that narrative. The last time I made minimum wage I was 15 or so. It’s not the business owners. It’s the laborers who have poor to no economic value. And yes they will be replaced where feasible by automation and foreign labor. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/52 "2017-04-08T03:09:37Z")
When every business in the area has to comply with the same wages and regulations, they’re operating on a level playing field. Given that the market isn’t going to go away (though it may fluctuate, as it always does anyway), there will always be a need for the service. The best business managers will win over the day. If anyone cannot compete, it isn’t because of the wages and regulations, it is because they aren’t as good as their competition, which is what Capitalism is all about. So hey, I don’t have any sympathy for business owners who whine that raising wages will put them out of business. If there is still a demand for that business, someone who does a better job will replace you. Businesses come, businesses go. Same as it ever was. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/53 "2017-04-08T05:45:25Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > When every business in the area has to comply with the same wages and regulations, they’re operating on a level playing field. Given that the market isn’t going to go away (though it may fluctuate, as it always does anyway), there will always be a need for the service. The best business managers will win over the day. If anyone cannot compete, it isn’t because of the wages and regulations, it is because they aren’t as good as their competition, which is what Capitalism is all about. > > So hey, I don’t have any sympathy for business owners who whine that raising wages will put them out of business. If there is still a demand for that business, someone who does a better job will replace you. > > Businesses come, businesses go. Same as it ever was. Not true. Trucks, ships, and airplanes say otherwise. You know how cheap it is to ship tons of goods? This isn’t the 13th century. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/54 "2017-04-08T07:58:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s the laborers who have poor to no economic value. So what should happen to people “who have poor to no economic value”? ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/55 "2017-04-08T12:36:11Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I find it bizarre that waiters don’t get paid full minimum wage. So far as I know, in Canada there are no tiers to minimum wage like that. This is not true. There is a different minimum wage in Ontario for those who serve alcohol. Slightly lower than the standard minimum wage. ([https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/minwage.php](https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/minwage.php)) ---
**Author:** ![CoastalMaineiac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@CoastalMaineiac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoastalMaineiac)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/56 "2017-04-08T12:53:44Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I don’t know, but I assume the latter. And of course it helps little if your employer is shady. > > FWIW, Some of the per capita richest countries in the world (most or all of the Scandinavian countries) don’t have a minimum wage. I don’t think that’s an argument against it of course, I’m pretty agnostic on this issue. They don’t have a minimum wage that’s set by law, but collective bargaining is so entrenched in their cultures and legal systems that most industries have a de facto minimum wage that has been set by a union representing the workers in that industry. If every company in the U.S. had to negotiate pay rates with a union in the same way they do over there, I’d probably be fine with no minimum wage in the U.S., as well. > [@](#): > > Denmark has no minimum-wage law. But Mr. Elofsson’s $20 an hour is the lowest the fast-food industry can pay under an agreement between Denmark’s 3F union, the nation’s largest, and the Danish employers group Horesta, which includes Burger King, McDonald’s, Starbucks and other restaurant and hotel companies. [https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/business/international/living-wages-served-in-denmark-fast-food-restaurants.html?\_r=0](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/business/international/living-wages-served-in-denmark-fast-food-restaurants.html?_r=0) From a [Wikipedia article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country) about minimum wages: > [@](#): > > Denmark: None; instead, negotiated between unions and employer associations; the average minimum wage for all private and public sector collective bargaining agreements was approximately DKK 110 ($18) per hour, exclusive of pension benefits. > > Finland: None; however, the law requires all employers, including non-unionized ones, to pay minimum wages agreed to in collective bargaining agreements; almost all workers are covered under such arrangements. > > Iceland: None; minimum wages are negotiated in various collectively bargained agreements and applied automatically to all employees in those occupations, regardless of union membership; while the agreements can be either industry- or sector-wide, and in some cases firm-specific, the minimum wage levels are occupation-specific. > > Norway: None; wages normally fall within a national scale negotiated by labor, employers, and local governments. > > None; in Sweden the law provides for the right of workers to form and join independent unions to bargain wages collectively, and it prohibits antiunion discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/57 "2017-04-08T12:54:00Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So what should happen to people “who have poor to no economic value”? Since we, as a society, don’t want people dying in the streets, they should be given assistance from the general fund. That is: we, as a society, should pay to help them. It makes little sense to tell an employer: you can’t hire this person unless you are willing and able to take care of all his physical needs. Not every job is worth that. If milk is too expensive for some folks to buy, we don’t mandate a maximum price for milk. We give people who need it assistance to buy milk. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/58 "2017-04-08T13:10:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Stranger on a Train** : > > The good answer is to raise prices according to the need to pay minimum wage and discourage tipping to offset, but tipping culture is so entrenched in the United States that the result wouldn’t be palletable to either customers or waitstaff (who want both minimum wage and tips). This probably happens when one restaurant-owner tries to buck the model in isolation, but that’s not what we have here. This is a statewide referendum. I imagine that, with every restaurant in the state being forced to move to the same model, the people will get used to it very quickly, just like people very quickly got used to not smoking in restaurants. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/59 "2017-04-08T13:32:58Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > This is not true. There is a different minimum wage in Ontario for those who serve alcohol. Slightly lower than the standard minimum wage. > ([https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/minwage.php](https://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/pubs/guide/minwage.php)) Same with BC and PQ, and in PQ there is also a lower rate for servers who do not serve alcohol, although it is not as low as the rate for alcohol servers. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2017, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933/60 "2017-04-08T14:45:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They do. Owners are required to make up the difference if the waiters don’t get it in tips. That’s a federal law. We go over that in every thread about this subject. Of the 5 restaurants I worked at only one actually did this. None of the 6 places my wife worked at did this. I have to say this in EACH thread about this as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-restaurant-industry-doesnt-like-paying-minimum-wage-too-bad-so-sad/783933.md?page=4)