# So, the US is better off without any troops? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858 "2005-05-21T06:02:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/1 "2005-05-21T06:02:39Z")
According to the last CNN poll results %70 percent of people polled would not reccomend military service to those that would be eligible. How lovely. Military service used to be a thing that was very highly respected, a worthy sacrifice if neccesary. There was a time when most US citizens were proud (albeit worried) to have their sons go off to war. There is still a lare amount of dignity in both service, and respect for loved ones going into service, however it’s not the same as it used to be. People never want to lose loved ones in any circumstance, let alone war, but a war based on a shifting political agenda makes it that much worse. Join the military? Are you crazy? Do you want to die? These thoughts are those of people that have little faith in what the US is doing abroad. Why should they think any different? The men and women that feel duty-bound to serve our country deserve all of the respect they get, and then some. Many would say that most of our nation’s greatest generations were brought up during war times. Back then people used to back our country’s will without hesitation, the same cannot be said today. Vietnam created quite a bit of tension between the government and the people, with the soldiers having to bear the brunt of the misguided animosity. Today, we’'ll support our troops. We’ll even buy stupid magnets for our cars that do nothing other than make some jackass rich. What we won’t do, is encourage our young adults to join the military, because they might die for no really good reason. If the US is going to force it’s will on whatever country seems to threaten it most, might it not be a good idea to have a willing pool of able bodied potential soldiers at its disposal? I guess you don’t need to use logic if your last name is Bush. What a fuckface. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/2 "2005-05-21T08:29:35Z")
Isn’t that how the Roman Empire fell? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/3 "2005-05-21T09:37:32Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > According to the last CNN poll results %70 percent of people polled would not reccomend military service to those that would be eligible. Is this a recent change? I wonder what the percentages were like in the Vietnam era and after? I wonder if you’re taking an ignorant snideswipe at Bush? ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2005, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/4 "2005-05-21T10:09:54Z")
It seems like kind of a leap from “I would not recommend military service to those who would be eligible” to “I believe that the United States is better off without any troops.” If 70% had answered affirmatively to the latter question, that would be a different story. Is this an all-time high number for this question? I’m no statistician, but I think it would be useful to have more than one data point before arriving at a conclusion. If somebody asked me out of the blue whether I would “recommend military service to those who would be eligible,” I’d probably answer no as well, but not necessarily because I think military service is a poor choice; I simply don’t think it’s a choice that I’d want to pressure another person into making. I’d have similar reservations if somebody asked me about police work, or firefighting, or any other type of work for that matter, but especially if it could result in physical harm. I’d have to know more about the hypothetical person or persons I’m supposed to be making this recommendation to. Just telling me that they’re “eligible” for military service doesn’t really help; presumably they’d also be eligible for a lot of other things as well. What do they want to do? If my niece was really jazzed about joining the Air Force, I’d certainly support her in pursuing that, but if she’d rather be a paleontologist or something, I wouldn’t go out of my way to recommend military service instead. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/5 "2005-05-22T05:07:07Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > If the US is going to force it’s will on whatever country seems to threaten it most, might it not be a good idea to have a willing pool of able bodied potential soldiers at its disposal? Setting current politics and circumstances aside–which takes quite an effort, but it always does–maintaining a standing army requires a radical shift in national perspective, much less dead-serious economic implications. Yeah, I know. Political expediency wasn’t always spun as ‘threat’. Lord knows it’s been done before, and fuelled by slathering press and a bewildered but well-meaning populace. Oh, say, seizing large chunks of Mexico, charging up San Juan hill and breaking treaties with Native Americans. For instance. Yeah, we’ve fallen short of our principles sometimes but at least the _worth_ of a citizen-army-in-time-of-need held true. Like Topsy, the nation just growed–into a super power. Who’d a thunk it? Now the trick is to ride out all the changes. IRCC, Switzerland requires all men to train for duty in the armed forces, and to maintain readiness. Then again, Switzerland isn’t noted for a lot of military demands on their populace. Which isn’t a slam against Switzerland, btw. They’ve prepared and defined their national priorites, but created effective protections for themselves beyond warfare. It’s one option to consider among many. I’d give Reagan large props for taking down the Soviet Union but for a few things. 1. He rammed a system already rotted from the inside by lousy economics and exacerbated by ridiculous military spending and 2. done it by using precisely the same rationale and tactics. Let’s all pour megabucks into _paranoia_! We out-spent them. Their underlying economy–the stuff of routine production and growth–was so flimsy it made balsa wood look sturdy. Paranoia don’t pay–and by that I mean it doesn’t foster individuals just getting along with their lives to the betterment of all. There’s probably a sloppy equation for empires. It probably boils down to common sense: don’t grab more than you can hold and nurture. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/6 "2005-05-22T06:34:08Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > I wouldn’t go out of my way to recommend military service instead. Yes, this thread was about people going out of their way to reccomend military service. Recruitment even. Great comprehension there. **TVeblen** ’s reply made little sense to me, considering my thrust. I must be obtuse. I’ll never fault a person for wanting to protect a loved one by discouraging them from serving, because that is human nature. Nobody wants their kids to die in combat, but many respect the sacrifice made when one does. I know I do. It just seems to me that there used to be a time when you could be a soldier and possibly not have to go to war. If you had to, it would probably be for something worthwhile. These days, you enlist, you’ll probably go overseas and fight, you have a decent chance of dying, and for what? Sounds like Vietnam huh? The US is quick to threaten military force, yet we as a people would not like our young ones serving. Of course. That’ll work. FTR, I would not like to take “an ignorant sideswipe at Bush”, his idiocy has been well documented, and I’d like to punch him _directly_ in his stupid face. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Kenneth\_Noisewater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dr.Kenneth\_Noisewater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Kenneth_Noisewater)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/7 "2005-05-22T06:36:51Z")
Yeah, you’re a bit crazy. Brave crazy, but crazy nonetheless. It’s an extension of the idea that the U.S. is better without _war_. If we’re not being bombarded by Huns or suicide bombers or what have you (9/11 is another issue), why do we need to go kill people for freedom? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/8 "2005-05-22T06:50:36Z")
I don’t necessarily think we’ve seen a big shift in public opinion. During the _Revolutionary war_ many colonists wanted absolutely nothing to do with the war at all, let alone participate in the fighting. During the War of 1812 when foreign armies were ravaging our countrysides entire States refused to participate in any offensive engagements. During the Civil War there were riots in the North because of the draft (a draft done because not enough were willing to volunteer.) I think in general people have never been really gung ho on running off to war. I think that throughout history a high % wouldn’t recommend _active_ military service. However I think that throughout history and even today everyone with family and friends in the military has great respect for them. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/9 "2005-05-22T07:02:31Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > **TVeblen** ’s reply made little sense to me, considering my thrust. I must be obtuse. That’s okay. It only made muddled sense to me and I wrote it. I hate the idea that Dubya’s war has positioned the county for a compulsary military draft. Very risky thing, for lots of reasons. Some countries have required military service of citizens but balanced it with broader national vitality and productivity. And citizen commitment to the portion of their lives dedicated to military service. I just don’t see how any of those examples can translate effectively here. Some nations make it work but their necessities and grass roots compact are different. If ordinary citizens don’t believe in the pressing need behind the sacrifice required _they won’t make it_. If such is enforced for too long, even with plenty of spin, flag-waving and fear-mongering, it’ll inevitably exhaust the very source of willing citizen soldiers. And their families. And ordinary people going about their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/10 "2005-05-22T10:42:32Z")
> [@dnooman](#): > > Yes, this thread was about people going out of their way to reccomend military service. Recruitment even. Great comprehension there. Sorry for being whooshed then. If the OP wasn’t about people recommending military service to others, though, then I guess I really don’t see how the CNN poll relates to your later remarks. I thought you were citing it as evidence that people don’t respect military service as much as they used to. If that wasn’t the case, then I agree that you’re right; I really don’t understand the gist of your thread. I apologize for my error. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Kenneth\_Noisewater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dr.Kenneth\_Noisewater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Kenneth_Noisewater)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/11 "2005-05-22T11:05:49Z")
The OP does ramble a bit. I don’t see a point either, other than bush sox lol ^\_^. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/12 "2005-05-22T12:24:05Z")
I would guess that stating that you wish to commit physical violence against the sitting President of the United States is not a terribly intelligent thing to do. Could be wrong though. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/13 "2005-05-22T15:05:07Z")
On a purely analytical basis, I wouldn’t recommend the military to my kids because of: poverty level pay long hours long periods away from family tendency to alcohol abuse potential for physical harm, either in combat or in day-to-day work (think flight deck crew on an aircraft carrier) socialized medical and dental care In my mind, compared to private sector work, the minuses outweigh the pluses (and there are many). ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/14 "2005-05-22T15:17:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Is this a recent change? I wonder what the percentages were like in the Vietnam era and after? I wonder if you’re taking an ignorant snideswipe at Bush? I’d also like to hear what the figures were before Iraq. I’d be surprised, though, if the number who recommend military service didn’t go down after a war who’s primary justifaction turned out to be false. And surely it’s going to go down at least bit after any war that wasn’t triggered by the US being directly attacked. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/15 "2005-05-22T17:59:07Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > During the _Revolutionary war_ many colonists wanted absolutely nothing to do with the war at all, let alone participate in the fighting. I think that’s right. From the histories I’ve read, one third of the colonists were loyalists to Britain, one third wanted independence, and the other third was undecided. Those that wanted independence _mostly_ did so for economic reasons–they didn’t like the taxation and economic restrictions that the Crown was imposing. They were a minority in that regard, because the rest of the people didn’t view the taxes as such a burden that it was worth dying in a war for independence. Yes, there were many that favored independence perhaps because of of their knowlege of and admiration for the Enlightenment, but they were wealthy landowners like Jefferson who didn’t actually fight. I think the popular support for taking up arms came mostly from those whose livelihood came from commerce, and who saw the violent response to protests of taxation on the part of the Crown. It could also be due to the fact that the colonists, who weren’t limited by land ownership (just steal it from the natives), were exceptionally productive, and stood to gain from release from the Crown; the benefits of colonial protection lost out to the possibilities of unrestricted trade with the world and boundless frontiers. Well, that’s at least what I’ve gathered. Correct me if I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Rhubarb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/59ef9b/32.png) [@Rhubarb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhubarb)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/16 "2005-05-22T18:16:45Z")
I served 6 years in the post-Viet Nam US Navy. It broadened my horizons considerably. I got to see a pretty large cross section of the world and it helped finance my college education. I made some really good friends, had some pretty good times and learned a salable skill. I fucking HATED it. For all the reasons mentioned by **Chefguy** and many others. The almost complete loss of autonomy and the absolute frustration of dealing day in and day out with an enormous bureaucracy that values you not at all just for starters. I would not have recommended military service to anyone (unless I didn’t like them) long before 9/11, Afghanistan, Iraq and whatever is to follow. I can only grudgingly admit that the military is a necessary evil and that some people do get something out of it, but to recommend it to a loved one? As we often said in the Navy, “You MUST be high.” ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/17 "2005-05-22T18:59:40Z")
Nicely said, **dnooman**. ---
**Author:** ![Tripler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripler/32/21807_2.png) [@Tripler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tripler)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2005, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/18 "2005-05-22T19:38:33Z")
My $0.02 I don’t serve a President, **I serve a document**. Granted, the President is my Commander in Chief, I trust him to tell me what is in the best interest of the Cosntitution of the United States. For the OP: Is the U.S. better off without troops? No. If you withdraw all the troops we have to the US, you might as well call “Bob the Enzyte guy”. We as a nation have developed to the point that we need to make presences known (in my mind North Korea), to keep all hell from breaking loose. There’s a minimum requirement, and for some folks, I would recommend people to take that requirement and hold it fast–take that torch and keep the flame alive. Currently, my job is to stabilize Hell. I still need good people to help me stabilize Hades. Tripler Squash the little fires quick and soon versus letting it burn over the world. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/19 "2005-05-23T03:05:36Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Isn’t that how the Roman Empire fell? The barbarians this time around are Latinos who want to get US citizenship… the similiarity is scary. I think enlisting in the US army nowadays isn’t a “smart” thing to do… it certainly seemed more worthwhile in the past. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2005, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858/20 "2005-05-23T03:38:30Z")
My only first cousin joined up to be able to support his family. This was a complete shock to me, for several reasons. First, I didn’t know he had joined up because of unemployment. Second, I didn’t know he was married. Third, I didn’t know he had an infant daughter. (We’re not exactly what you’d call close.) I have to say, joining the military is not how I’d want to start supporting my family, for the reasons mentioned earlier. But I am not about to second-guess his decision. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-the-us-is-better-off-without-any-troops/304858.md?page=2)