# So these are the heroes that will step up as we stand down? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126 "2007-01-30T16:42:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/1 "2007-01-30T16:42:24Z")
[Iraq army almost defeated by band of loons](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/30/world/middleeast/30iraq.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin) The Army of Heaven is/was apparently a millenarianist cult. > [@](#): > > Iraqi forces were surprised and nearly overwhelmed by the ferocity of an obscure renegade militia in a weekend battle near the holy city of Najaf and needed far more help from American forces than previously disclosed, American and Iraqi officials said Monday. > > \ > > “This group had more capabilities than the government,” said Abdul Hussein Abtan, the deputy governor of Najaf Province, at a news conference. > > Only a month ago, in an elaborate handover ceremony, the American command transferred security authority over Najaf to the Iraqis. The Americans said at the time that they would remain available to assist the Iraqis in the event of a crisis. > > The Iraqis and Americans eventually prevailed in the battle. But the Iraqi security forces’ miscalculations about the group’s strength and intentions raised troubling questions about their ability to recognize and deal with a threat. > [@](#): > > The Iraqis initially sent a battalion from their Eighth Army Division, along with police forces, but they were quickly overwhelmed, according to an Iraqi commander at the scene. The battalion began to retreat but was soon surrounded and pinned down, and had to call in American air support to keep the enemy from overrunning its position. > > American Apache attack helicopters and F-16s, as well as British fighter jets, flew low over the farms where the enemy had set up its encampments and attacked, dropping 500-pound bombs on the encampments. The Iraqi forces were still unable to advance, and they called in support from both an elite Iraqi unit known as the Scorpion Brigade, which is based to the north in Hilla, and from American ground troops. > > Around noon, elements of the American Fourth Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division were dispatched from near Baghdad. Estimated at about 500 these cultists required the US airpower and ground troops to deal with. [The Army of Heaven](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq29jan29,0,4626909.story?coll=la-home-headlines) > [@](#): > > Ali Nomas, an Iraqi security official in Najaf, said the fighters belonged to a group calling itself Heaven’s Army, one of several messianic cults that have appeared among Shiites who believe in the imminent return of Imam Mahdi, the last in the line of Shiite saints who disappeared more than 1,000 years ago. Nomas said the information came from interviews with at least 10 detained fighters. > > “Everyday someone claims he’s the Mahdi,” he said. > > Nomas said the leader of the hitherto unknown Heaven’s Army had told followers that he was a missing son of the Imam Ali, the cousin and son-in-law of the prophet Muhammad. Ali’s remains are entombed in Najaf. > > “They believe that the Mahdi has called them to fight in Najaf,” Nomas said, adding that fighters had converged on the Najaf area from other predominantly Shiite cities in Iraq. > > He lamented that Iraq’s death and destruction had convinced some Shiites that the end of days was coming. > > “There’s nothing bizarre left in Iraq anymore,” Nomas said in a telephone interview. “We’ve seen the most incredible things.” How is the ‘surge,’ which relies on the Iraq army holding what the US clears, going to work if the Iraq army can’t deal with a few hundred militia types? The parallels with ‘vietnamisation’, grow by the hour. Or maybe - Europe in the middle of the Black Death. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/2 "2007-01-30T16:55:07Z")
Boy Scouts & goobers. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/3 "2007-01-30T17:01:34Z")
> [@](#): > > …the Iraqi security forces’ miscalculations about the group’s strength and intentions raised troubling questions about their ability to recognize and deal with a threat. I guess they are reaching the level if the US army, then. You can tell they are learning from the masters. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/4 "2007-01-30T17:11:44Z")
Is this a debate or a Pit rant? Information not provided in the story includes: Where were Iraqi troops stationed in relation to the battle site? The Iraqis supplied their Scorpion Brigade to help out. Were the U.S. troops, (also at brigade strength), simply closer to the fighting than any other Iraqi units, so it made more sense to send one each of U.S. and Iraqi brigades than to wait an additional few hours to send two Iraqi units? I suspect that the Iraqis are not yet prepared and that Bush and company are deluding themselves (or lying to us) about eventual turnover, but this isolated battle does not demonstrate that particular point. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/5 "2007-01-30T17:33:24Z")
[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor] Boy Scouts & goobers. :smack: [/QUOTE] As a Boy Scout leader (well, Cub Scouts, these days), I _deeply_ resent the comparison. :mad: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/6 "2007-01-30T17:55:12Z")
Of course they are ready. I remember Rice on Meet the Press in 2004 claiming that over 100,000 fully trained Iraqi troops were in the field. So there are many ,many more now. Two weeks training is all it takes. Nothing isolated about this story. There have been many stories of ill trained or disinterested Iraqi troops. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/7 "2007-01-30T18:09:00Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] The parallels with ‘vietnamisation’, grow by the hour. Or maybe - Europe in the middle of the Black Death. [/QUOTE] I was thinking, Germany during the [30 Years’ War.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_years_war) Multi-sided civil war, religious-ethnic-class conflict all mixed together, outbreaks of incomprehensible mass hysteria, bizarre cults springing up everywhere, foreign powers sticking their noses in . . . ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/8 "2007-01-30T18:27:28Z")
A battalion of Iraqi troops? How many in a battalion? Of the opposing force, how many were armed “combatants” and how many were extraneous personnel (women, children, assorted other shrapnel absorption units)? When we institute our “clear and hold” strategery in Baghdad, are these the sort of troops that we can expect to run to the aid of our troops if things get nasty? Barring further information of an encouraging nature, this is…less than optimal. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/9 "2007-01-30T18:42:18Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] A battalion of Iraqi troops? How many in a battalion? Of the opposing force, how many were armed “combatants” and how many were extraneous personnel (women, children, assorted other shrapnel absorption units)? [/QUOTE] A battalion currently runs to about 800 troops (the size changes over the years) of whom perhaps 80% are actually used for combat instead of support. Of course, that assumes a fully outfitted battalion on the day they are formally sent out. Once they are in the field, casualties, transfers, and other issues can reduce that number, considerably. If the hostile militia had 500 effectives, entrenched, attacking 400 Iraqi effectives (who may have instructions not to abandon their road-bound vehicles), that could place the Iraqis in a pretty bad situation, particularly if they took casualties in the inital attack, reducing their number of effective troops while tying up other resources to cvare for the wounded. So why would another two battalions be needed to free them? Because one wants to use overwhelming force to overcome entrenched positions. (Back in the Napoleonic era, an assault on a fortified position was presumed to need a 4:1 ration for success.) This could have been every bit as much of a display of incompetence as the OP presumes. At this point, however, we do not have sufficient information to make that a clear judgment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/10 "2007-01-30T19:04:11Z")
The other issue in this particular instance was the immediacy of the problem. The group was targeting Sistani at the important Shi’a holy day of Ashura, which is today. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/11 "2007-01-30T20:28:49Z")
The patriotic, motivated people are either the ones fighting against us, or if they _are_ in the army are probably just there to get the weapons and training they need to fight for their faction; they don’t want to actually fight for Iraq, but their faction. I expect a lot of soldiers are there simply because after the way we destroyed their country, they need the food and shelter. People who have no reason to care about winning make poor soldiers. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/12 "2007-01-30T20:32:38Z")
Does anyone remeber a little story a few years back about how the US BATF was overwelmed by a band of loons holed up in a compound in Waco, TX? IIRC, they too had to call in the US Army to help. Not that I think that the Iraqi army is a premier military force, but it sounds like a lot of people in this thread are also underestimating the capabilities of 500 lunatics armed with modern firepower. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/13 "2007-01-30T20:47:20Z")
The problem with the Iraq military is that they aren’t investing enough in national defense. I don’t see why they don’t just raise their military budget to 426 billion like we do! _ **Duh!!!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Homo\_Ergaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Homo\_Ergaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homo_Ergaster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/14 "2007-01-31T05:36:28Z")
Well, the loonies DID lose, didn’t they? Defending a well-chosen position has always been easier than attacking. We have to be careful not to mix political ideas with battlefield realities. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/15 "2007-01-31T10:16:19Z")
[QUOTE=Homo Ergaster] Well, the loonies DID lose, didn’t they? Defending a well-chosen position has always been easier than attacking. We have to be careful not to mix political ideas with battlefield realities. [/QUOTE] They lost because the US airpower got them. Not the much vaunted Iraqi National Army whose expertise seems to consist entirely of walking into a straight left hook and calling for help. Which is the point of the OP. The ‘surge’ is based on the notion that the same ‘army’ will fight shoulder to shoulder with the few thousand extra US troops and then hold the cleared areas. Without presumably the USAF bombing the cleared area to rubble every time the INA gets into a fight. The further point is that 500 heavily armed men assembled and dug in around Najaf a month after Iraq was handed the security responsibility for the area. Ponder the implications of that. Meanwhile [Not so much standing up as legging it](http://www.freenewmexican.com/news/56082.html) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Iraqi officials in troubled Diyala province northeast of Baghdad sacked 1,500 policemen, charging them with absenteeism and fleeing fighting. They also dismissed Baqubah Mayor Khalid Shanjary, for having alleged ties to Sunni Arab rebels. The violent province is riddled with Sunni Arab al-Qaida cell members as well as militiamen affiliated with Shiite cleric, Muqtada al-Sadr. The debate is: how can the surge possibly succeed if this is the calibre and capability of the INA (and the police so friggin’ corrupt, cowardly and disloyal)? My prediction? IF the various militias don’t just keep their heads down or snipe from the sidelines at fixed positions until the US ‘surge’ ends (the most likely outcome for the Malaki supporting ones of Sadr) the US/INA forces will, being in combination casualty adverse and poorly trained, low morale and of dubious loyalty, make such use of air stikes and artillery that the level of civilian casualties will just add fuel to the fire. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/16 "2007-01-31T13:23:05Z")
If, or rather when, we get out then they will know what they are fighting for. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/17 "2007-01-31T14:16:04Z")
[QUOTE=FRDE] If, or rather when, we get out then they will know what they are fighting for. [/QUOTE] Whatever faction they owe their primary loyalty to. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/18 "2007-01-31T16:22:51Z")
[http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.independent.co.uk%2Fworld%2Fmiddle\_east%2Farticle2201103.ece](http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.independent.co.uk%2Fworld%2Fmiddle_east%2Farticle2201103.ece) **"US ‘victory’ against cult leader was ‘massacre’ "** > [@](#): > > There are growing suspicions in Iraq that the official story of the battle outside Najaf between a messianic Iraqi cult and the Iraqi security forces supported by the US, in which 263 people were killed and 210 wounded, is a fabrication. The heavy casualties may be evidence of an unpremeditated massacre… Offered without comment. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/19 "2007-01-31T16:36:09Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] [http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.independent.co.uk%2Fworld%2Fmiddle\_east%2Farticle2201103.ece](http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.independent.co.uk%2Fworld%2Fmiddle_east%2Farticle2201103.ece) **"US ‘victory’ against cult leader was ‘massacre’ "** Offered without comment. [/QUOTE] Priceless. Remind me again who we outsourced INA training to? The Marx Brothers or the Keystone Cops? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126/20 "2007-01-31T16:43:35Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] [http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.independent.co.uk%2Fworld%2Fmiddle\_east%2Farticle2201103.ece](http://www.rawstory.com/showarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.independent.co.uk%2Fworld%2Fmiddle_east%2Farticle2201103.ece) **"US ‘victory’ against cult leader was ‘massacre’ "** Offered without comment. [/QUOTE] And dismissed with the same amount of comment. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-these-are-the-heroes-that-will-step-up-as-we-stand-down/390126.md?page=2)