# So, this is it (Syria) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 25, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113 "2013-08-25T06:41:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/161 "2013-08-29T10:43:12Z")
> [@emj3](#): > > Tonight I took a long look at the map of the middle east, studying the complexity of the shared borders in the region and the relative size of a country compared to it’s roar. This exercise is not recommended for after 6 p.m. if you want a sound night’s sleep. The borders of Syria, a country in crisis, touch on Jordan, Lebanon, Isreal, Iraq and not to forget Turkey; Saudia Arabia and Egypt not that far off. Considering the difference in cultures, the centuries old conflicts of religions reaching for control and territory, I can’t see how anyone would expect the countries of the region to coexist in peace. The daily bombings, death in the streets, cities of rubble… people become desensitized to what should be percieved as horror. They live on streets with burned up cars and buildings that no longer have fronts, and it has to be acceptable. While they are forced to live it (“they” being the guy or woman going out in the morning in Iraq trying to get to market or to the work placework without being blown up), I watch it every day on TV…“40 people killed” and no longer take in what that really means. But I do. I kept looking at the map thinking of the daily state of war and hostility in the area and how that pressure cooker of insanity just has to lead to the making of insane leaders (or is it the other way around?). Seems to me we are getting too close to the tipping point of no return…too many countries with too many year’s old hostilities and to many fluid parts morphing and moving at once…like a lava lamp. Actually, as I came on to this forum all I had wanted to post (this is my first time here, I hope this is not what you call a rant.) before writing all of the above is this…(attributed to Einstein and also attributed to a soldier towards the end of WWII)…when asked what the next world war would look like he said he did not know how the next war would be fought, but he knew the one after that would be fought with sticks. Don’t panic! The Middle East has always been thus and thus it shall always be (for the forseeable future, anyway). No reason to head for the nuclear fallout shelter just yet as the Syrian dispute remains firmly inside Syria’s borders and neighbouring countries are not currently making any moves that would expand the conflict. Egypt in particular has a host of its own problems right now and is not likely to get embroiled in Syria’s civil war. Iraq is another neighbour with plenty of domestic issues to deal with right now. Turkey has no reason to get involved militarily either. Everyone else, including Russia and the US are not going to start lobbing nuclear rockets over this conflict either. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong to care, just that you might want to turn back the doomsday clock a few notches. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/162 "2013-08-29T13:18:02Z")
Oppps, this was the wrong narrative and so was buried: > [@](#): > > **UN commission downplays claim Syria rebels used sarin** > **[UN commission downplays claim Syria rebels used sarin](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22428496)** > > A UN inquiry seeks to distance itself from comments made by a member that there is evidence of the nerve gas sarin being used by Syrian rebels. Evidence obtained by a UN Commissioner - means nothing of course as compared with the opinion of regime changer John Kerry. I guess the rebels got a little smarter this time. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/163 "2013-08-29T13:26:52Z")
Especially a UN team consisting of Time Lords, who traveled back to May in order to report on an attack that took place on August. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/164 "2013-08-29T13:28:37Z")
Helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/165 "2013-08-29T13:30:10Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/166 "2013-08-29T14:06:18Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t think we’ve made any demands. We’re too pussy. Killing off both sides? Are you kidding? Israel maybe has the balls but no one’s going to let them. Well no, I’m not kidding. That’s part of my Formal Warning proposal. If we really believe Assad is going to kill his population with poison gas (and then threaten us or his neighbors with it), it doesn’t much matter if we kill them a little faster for a good cause. If we are going to commit acts of war over WMDs, it had better be to solve a problem. Launching a few tomahawks isn’t going to do anything. Turning the place into rubble from which the WMDs have been removed solves the problem. The question is: Is sarin gas a big enough worry to take real action? Yes or no. Wreck the place if we’re going in, but don’t stick our toe in, stand there looking stupid and wait for someone to hit us on the head with a stick. If we’re not really going to do anything, make the decision to really do nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/167 "2013-08-29T14:11:59Z")
I’ll be damned, I underestimated the Russians, who’d have thought they’d send their warships to where the Allies are? Unfortunately, we’re in it, there’s no way America should flinch, _ever_. The strike is not about the chemical weapons, it’s about the **red-line** \* that the U.S emphatically drawn, and how if our actions and conduct don’t match our words, no one will never take us seriously again. With all of this talk about Israel, where the fuck are their warships and aircraft carriers? God knows Israel has the capability to defend the Gaza Strip from the ballistic onslaught of food and medicine from Turkish ships, will they defend the U.S - a “friend and ally”- from the Russian warships in Mediterranean Sea? This year, the U.S federal government transferred $3.2 billion dollars from our poorest citizens to a sovereign nation; so for me, this is an colorful and apt opportunity to see _if_ Israel’s words match Her conduct. - Honesty - The U.S should have never drawn the line to begin with, but what’s done is done. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/168 "2013-08-29T14:12:32Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Not that I’m in favor of what seem like inevitable strikes against Syria, but I find the replication of the events you portray as highly unlikely as happening again. Particularly in the case of the Maine, which dates to the 19th century. Really? Not sure what you’re saying. All I meant by my post was that Obama would be well served by emulating Bush and getting a Congressional fig leaf authorization for the air strikes that we all think are coming. I brought up the _Maine_ as an example of the USN losing a capital ship unexpectedly. I guess I could have mentioned Pearl Harbor. The U.S. has had its way militarily for the last 35 years or so, with loss-less cruise missile diplomacy being the rule for at least the last 20. The U.S. has gotten used to the idea that they can stroll up to a foreign country, drop high explosives within it, attempt to kill whomever they wish, and the subjects of that treatment _can’t do anything about it_. They can’t shoot down more than a handful of aircraft, they can’t sink any of the warships off their shore, and they certainly wouldn’t dream of sending irregular troops into the United States to attack targets here. That can change. I listed one way—modern precision anti-ship missiles—that I think has a small, very small, possibility of doing so. I listed the _Stark_ to show that the USN is not omniscient on the high seas. Like you, I don’t think it’s likely we’ll lose a carrier. Even hitting it is at least one or two orders of magnitude tougher than ambushing a lone frigate, but it’s not utterly inconceivable. If it happens, and 75% of the crew get killed as happened with the _Maine_, thousands of sailors will die. If Hezbollah still is able to perform terrorist strikes far away from Lebanon; say, within the U.S., that’s another way the loss-less model can change. I don’t think Assad, assuming he even has the power to control whatever terrorists Hezbollah can wield, would green light terror attacks within the U.S. Unless he thinks he’s going down anyway. After Saddam, and Khadafy, and to a lesser extent, Milosevic, dictators know that the only thing waiting for them when they lose, is the noose. If they’re lucky. They don’t get a USAF flight to [Honolulu](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Marcos) or [Paris](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Duvalier). So from their point of view, if they’re going to go down anyway—which a cruise missile attack by itself probably won’t do—why not do as much damage as possible to your killer? That it hasn’t occurred yet to any of the dictators the U.S. has deposed so far, does not mean it won’t occur to Assad if he thinks he’s going to end up like Khadafi. I would prefer that the red line claim not have been made to begin with, and not striking at all now even though it’s been made. But if he’s set on bombing Syria, then I think getting an AUMF and diluting the blame for any potential disaster is the way to go. A benefit is that there’s no chance in Hell that the Congress would sign off on an AUMF, so this would allow the Administration a face-saving way to not commit to military action. We have this idea in the U.S. that bombs are something that happen to other people; that the U.S. homefront won’t suffer in any way the same kinds of destruction the U.S. military inflicts on other countries. Nothing says it has to stay that way. Make the goal of the military activity worth the risks you run by undertaking it. Getting involved in another country’s civil war, even if gas was used, where both sides are largely made up of loathsome people, doesn’t seem worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/169 "2013-08-29T14:20:23Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > With all of this talk about Israel, where the fuck are their warships and aircraft carriers? God knows Israel has the capability to defend the Gaza Strip from the ballistic onslaught of food and medicine from Turkish ships, will they defend the U.S - a “friend and ally”- from the Russian warships in Mediterranean Sea? This year, the U.S federal government transferred $3.2 billion dollars from our poorest citizens to a sovereign nation; so for me, this is an colorful and apt opportunity to see _if_ Israel’s words match Her conduct. Umm… first of all, the reason you don’t hear news about Israeli ships arriving in the Eastern Mediterranean is that _they’re already there_. I mean, where else would they be? Second of all, Israel’s aircraft carrier has already been deployed. It’s called “Israel”. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/170 "2013-08-29T14:33:06Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > The strike is not about the chemical weapons, it’s about the **red-line** \* that the U.S emphatically drawn, and how if our actions and conduct don’t match our words, no one will never take us seriously again. Fuck the red line. We’re talking about war, not Simon Says. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/171 "2013-08-29T14:37:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Umm… first of all, the reason you don’t hear news about Israeli ships arriving in the Eastern Mediterranean is that _they’re already there_. I mean, where else would they be? > > Second of all, Israel’s aircraft carrier has already been deployed. It’s called “Israel”. Third: [Israel supports Assad](http://www.france24.com/en/20130328-assad-syria-israel-friend-netanyahu-diplomacy-unrest-haaretz) as so they should. He’s the secular Devil They Know who lets them bomb his stuff from time to time without making a peep. They won’t want an Islamic Republic in Syria and they don’t want the kind of chaos that lets wmd’s fall into either lunatic or unscrupulous hands. > [@](#): > > For the past three years Netanyahu was Assad’s silent ally. With the Syrian regime becoming destabilized, its borders breached and the struggle for its future rupturing the region, Israel had the back of the tyrant from Damascus. It made no deterrent military moves, did not openly support the Syrian opposition and did not even use the horrors in Syria for obligatory propaganda like “Arabs murder Arabs and the hypocritical world does not care, and we are criticized for much less.” Netanyahu made do with general statements about the “breakup” of Syria and warnings against chemical weapons and missiles falling into the hands of terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/172 "2013-08-29T14:38:10Z")
If Obama is gonna send missiles over and bomb the Syrian chemical weapons, he better hurry. Because if I were Assad, I would be moving those chemical weapons [list=a][li]someplace underground or hidden. As well as right next to schools, hospitals, playgrounds, mosques, and marketplaces, especially in places friendly to the rebels.[/list]Then invite al-Jazeera over for tea and cookies and pictures.[/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/173 "2013-08-29T14:59:30Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Third: [Israel supports Assad](http://www.france24.com/en/20130328-assad-syria-israel-friend-netanyahu-diplomacy-unrest-haaretz) as so they should. He’s the secular Devil They Know who lets them bomb his stuff from time to time without making a peep. They won’t want an Islamic Republic in Syria and they don’t want the kind of chaos that lets wmd’s fall into either lunatic or unscrupulous hands. There’s some truth in that, with two crucial caveats: 1. Israel may prefer Assad to some of the alternatives, but our biggest enemies are still Iran and Hizballah, both of which support the Assad regime. It’s OK if \*he \*wins, but we don’t want \*them \*to grow any stronger. 2. We seriously do NOT want chemical weapons used in our neighborhood. It lowers property values. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/174 "2013-08-29T15:07:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If Obama is gonna send missiles over and bomb the Syrian chemical weapons, he better hurry. Because if I were Assad, I would be moving those chemical weapons [list=a][li]someplace underground or hidden. As well as [\*]right next to schools, hospitals, playgrounds, mosques, and marketplaces, especially in places friendly to the rebels.[/list]Then invite al-Jazeera over for tea and cookies and pictures.[/li] > Regards, > Shodan Where are you getting the idea that Obama intends to bomb the CWs? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/175 "2013-08-29T15:12:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where are you getting the idea that Obama intends to bomb the CWs? I don’t think he will either, but it’s a reasonable inference. And, coldly, if they are bombed, then they can’t be used by either Assad against civilians, nor by AQ elements in the rebels, against the U.S. It sucks for anyone living next to the depots, of course. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/176 "2013-08-29T15:28:59Z")
If the US bombs just the conventional targets, the CW’s can go off by “accident” and kill a bunch of people anyway. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/177 "2013-08-29T16:01:39Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If the US bombs just the conventional targets, the CW’s can go off by “accident” and kill a bunch of people anyway. Quite. If I were Assad I’d have some primed and ready to be dropped anywhere the US bombs. The propaganda value would be huge and stoke Muslim anger all over the world including in western countries. It’ll create new and motivated terrorists. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/178 "2013-08-29T16:11:20Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where are you getting the idea that Obama intends to bomb the CWs? I was assuming that Obama wants to bomb something at least marginally related to the red line that Assad crossed by using chemical weapons. It’s more symbolic than anything else, since bombing troop concentrations or ammo dumps isn’t going to achieve anything more to unseat Assad or prevent future use of WMDs either. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/179 "2013-08-29T20:31:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > If the US bombs just the conventional targets, the CW’s can go off by “accident” and kill a bunch of people anyway. > [@tagos](#): > > Quite. **If I were Assad I’d have some primed and ready to be dropped anywhere the US bombs. The propaganda value would be huge and stoke Muslim anger all over the world including in western countries.** It’ll create new and motivated terrorists. That’s an interesting point. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113/180 "2013-08-29T21:13:25Z")
Have you ever hit a hornets nest with a stick? Timeline: = 6 days till G20 meeting in Saint Petersburg, Russia September 5th-6th Timeline: = 2 days left till UN inspection team departs Syria with results to follow first week of September Timeline: = President Obama speaking of “we just want to send a clear message of our disapproval” with a “shot across the bow so to speak” Timeline: = President Obama talking to certain members of congress about what to do, is right now as we speak even Rumsfeld has learned from his mistakes: > **[Rumsfeld: Obama Is Rushing to War](https://www.newser.com/story/173393/rumsfeld-obama-is-rushing-to-war.html?utm_source=part&utm_medium=united&utm_campaign=rss_top)** > > Iraq architect believes Washington hasn't justified military action [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-it-syria/667113.md?page=10)