# so, this is what some think points to Black greatness? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575 "2012-03-12T18:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/21 "2012-03-12T20:28:37Z")
I think it’s incredibly unlikely she had any awareness of the crime, most especially given that those WERE her guns. Call her whatever you like, she isn’t stupid, and you can’t say she could have had any delusions she’d get any benefit of the doubt from being a radical black communist. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/22 "2012-03-12T20:36:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Whereas, according to [Davis’s account of the case](http://www.jstor.org/stable/1395091?seq=9), the guns in question were purchased by her and kept in her house for protecting her own safety. As a prominent Communist who had notoriously been fired from a university position for her radical views, Davis apparently got a lot of death threats and consequently hired bodyguards. > > She was involved with the legal defense in the _cause celebre_ of the “Soledad Brothers”, three black prison inmates accused of murdering a white prison guard who had killed other black inmates. The brother of one of those inmates became one of her bodyguards, and it was he who stole the guns from her house for the hostage seizure attempt that was supposed to let the Soledad Brothers escape. > > Under California law, the fact that the guns used in the commission of the crime were registered in Davis’ name _ipso facto_ made her “concerned in the commission of the crime”, and that was the reason that she was charged with criminal offenses. However, nobody ever showed that she actually knew anything about the hostage-taking plot or contributed to it in any way, so she was acquitted. > > Of course, I don’t know for certain whether or not the above version of the facts of the Marin County Courthouse Case is true in all its particulars. You can never absolutely rule out the possibility of some kind of secret conspiracy and successful cover-up. What I do know is that that is the version of the facts that the jury at Davis’s trial apparently considered convincing enough to acquit her. What’s more, I don’t know of any actual evidence contradicting that version. > > So, **magellan01** , if you’ve got a case to make for the claim that Angela Davis is actually guilty of murder, kidnapping, conspiracy to commit a crime, or related offenses, and that her acquittal was a miscarriage of justice, then by all means, go ahead and state it. > > Otherwise, though, you are getting your panties in a bunch over the fact that a woman kept guns in her own home for her own protection and they were stolen from her and used to commit a crime. > I did. Passing over the fact that it’s from the extremely anti-liberal _Washington Times_ and therefore possibly not a totally unbiased source, I’ll just note that absolutely all it has to say about any actual evidence concerning Davis’s alleged role in the crime is the following: > None of which contradicts the version of the facts that I laid out above. Please. If the guns were “Oh, my!!!” stolen from her apartment, why did she go into hiding. Not the actions of an innocent woman. But I did notice that in referring the article, you either missed or chose to ignore this: > [@](#): > > Ms. Davis was acquitted, wrote author and ex-radical David Horowitz for his Front Page website, “in part because of the difficulty the prosecution had in establishing in court the real connections between Davis and Jackson, and in part because the jury was stacked with political sympathizers like Mary Timothy, an anti-Vietnam [War] activist,” who, according to Mr. Horowitz, would later become the “love interest” of Bettina Aptheker, a prominent Communist Party activist and organizer of the National United Committee to Free Angela Davis and All Political Prisoners. And this is the type of woman that gets honored as an example of Black greatness: (emphasis mine) > [@](#): > > Ms. Davis holds that any black serving a prison sentence in the United States is in reality a “political prisoner,” **whatever offense they may have committed**. So, drug dealer: political prisoner. Murderer: political prisoner. Mugger: political prisoner. Rapist: political prisoner. Car thief: political prisoner. Embezzler: political prisoner. Pedophile: political prisoner. Tax cheat: political prisoner. Brilliant.:roll eyes: Now, let’s give your position every benefit of the doubt. Do you really think that having her included as one of the eight people raises the bar for greatness or lowers it. If you were celebrated on that wall, would you be prouder to have have her included with you or not. And that is my point. Not that she may be the the female Charles Manson, but that she is far from great, or even a good role model. ---
**Author:** ![Nawth\_Chucka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nawth\_Chucka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nawth_Chucka)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/23 "2012-03-12T20:45:49Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > I do so love the **magellan01** show, a daily synopsis of black social and political issues from the perspective of one white asshole. It’s vital that one gets a diligent and thorough anal bleacher for showing their ass. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/24 "2012-03-12T20:48:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Please. If the guns were “Oh, my!!!” stolen from her apartment, why did she go into hiding. Not the actions of an innocent woman. But I did notice that in referring the article, you either missed or chose to ignore this: She felt, not unreasonably, that a black communist leader was unlikely to get a fair shake in the early 1970’s American legal system. > [@](#): > > Ms. Davis was acquitted, wrote author and ex-radical David Horowitz for his Front Page website, “in part because of the difficulty the prosecution had in establishing in court the real connections between Davis and Jackson, and in part because the jury was stacked with political sympathizers like Mary Timothy, an anti-Vietnam [War] activist,” who, according to Mr. Horowitz, would later become the “love interest” of Bettina Aptheker, a prominent Communist Party activist and organizer of the National United Committee to Free Angela Davis and All Political Prisoners. Meh, David Horowitz thinks everything can be explained by a shadowy connections of people and groups to left wing groups. That he thinks its true in this case isn’t really saying much. Trying to say her acquittal was invalid because of the future romantic relationships of one of its members is pretty silly. And really, what would make Horowitz happy, screen the jury so that it contains nothing but conservatives who approve of the Vietnam war? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/25 "2012-03-12T20:51:06Z")
It is a terrible thing. Black people in America have fought so hard and so long to attain legitimacy, and along comes _one poster_ on the wall outside a D.C. courthouse and BOOM, back to square one. Perhaps the greatest poster-related outrage to befall our great nation since the time that one college kid drew tits and a goatee on Richard Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/26 "2012-03-12T20:56:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Please. If the guns were “Oh, my!!!” stolen from her apartment, why did she go into hiding. Not the actions of an innocent woman. :dubious: That’s your “case”? Your argument for assuming that Davis must be guilty is that innocent people who are wrongfully accused don’t try to flee from the law? Oh. > [@magellan01](#): > > But I did notice that in referring the article, you either missed or chose to ignore this: > > > [@](#): > > > > Ms. Davis was acquitted, wrote author and ex-radical David Horowitz for his Front Page website, “in part because of the difficulty the prosecution had in establishing in court the real connections between Davis and Jackson, and in part because the jury was stacked with political sympathizers like Mary Timothy, an anti-Vietnam [War] activist,” who, according to Mr. Horowitz, would later become the “love interest” of Bettina Aptheker, a prominent Communist Party activist and organizer of the National United Committee to Free Angela Davis and All Political Prisoners. I chose to ignore it because it has jack-shit to do with any actual **evidence** concerning Davis’s alleged role in the crime, which is what I was talking about. It’s merely a quote from an opinion piece by a neoconservative pundit who’s notoriously opposed to Davis’s politics. > [@magellan01](#): > > Now, let’s give your position every benefit of the doubt. In other words, you can’t point to any actual evidence that contradicts that position. > [@magellan01](#): > > Do you really think that having her included as one of the eight people raises the bar for greatness or lowers it. If you were celebrated on that wall, would you be prouder to have have her included with you or not. And that is my point. Not that she may be the the female Charles Manson, but that she is far from great, or even a good role model. Oh, that’s your point, is it? I thought your “point” was that Angela Davis “played a role in the the kidnapping and killing of a judge” and is “persona non grata” and is “scum who deserves to be locked up but got lucky”. Your point now appears to be that although you don’t actually have any evidence-based arguments to justify the claim that she’s guilty of a crime, you still find her political views repellent and thus do not consider her worthy of distinction. Fine; you’re entitled to your opinion. It’s a free country. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/27 "2012-03-12T20:59:57Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Meh, David Horowitz thinks everything can be explained by a shadowy connections of people and groups to left wing groups. That he thinks its true in this case isn’t really saying much. Trying to say her acquittal was invalid because of the future romantic relationships of one of its members is pretty silly. And really, what would make Horowitz happy, screen the jury so that it contains nothing but conservatives who approve of the Vietnam war? Do you realize that Horowitz was a member of the radical new left at the time? He was one of its leaders. There were few more deeply entrenched in it. [From Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz) > [@](#): > > Horowitz then wrote The Free World Colossus: A Critique of American Foreign Policy in the Cold War. In January 1968, Horowitz returned to the United States and became editor of the New Left magazine, Ramparts. > > During the early 1970s, Horowitz developed a close friendship with Black Panther Party founder Huey P. Newton. In Horowitz’s subsequent writings, Newton is depicted as equal parts gangster, terrorist, intellectual, and media celebrity. > > As part of their work together, Horowitz helped raised money for Newton and assisted with the running of a school for the children of Party members. He further recommended that Newton hire a bookkeeper, Betty Van Patter, who was then working for Ramparts. In December 1974, Van Patter’s murdered body was found floating in San Francisco Harbor.[14] Horowitz, who was certain that the Panthers were responsible, had his suspicions confirmed by several Party members. He has cited that experience as the catalyst which led him to reject Marxism completely. I’d say few people know more about what was going on with the left back then, and its members, than Horowitz. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/28 "2012-03-12T21:06:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Do you realize that Horowitz was a member of the radical new left at the time? He was one of its leaders. There were few more deeply entrenched in it. [From Wikipedia:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horowitz) At the time. But he wasn’t when he wrote the text you quoted. Now he writes…stuff like the text you quoted. If you really think that a future romantic relationship of one juror is enough to discount their verdict, so be it. But I don’t think you or Horowitz are going to convince many people with that argument. Davis had her day in court, and was found innocent of all charges by the people that heard the evidence related to the case. I rather agree with **Kimstu** that your need to discount that verdict stems more from your views of Davis’s politics then any real evidence for her involvement in the courtroom hostage murders. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/29 "2012-03-12T21:07:41Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Actually, of the ones on the list, the one I’d object to is Michelle Obama. While I like Mrs Obama, her claim to greatness is basically that she married well. Not sure that really sends a great message. That may be so, but she has used her position to do [some good things.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Obama#Work_undertaken_and_causes_promoted) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/30 "2012-03-12T21:10:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Ms. Davis holds that any black serving a prison sentence in the United States is in reality a “political prisoner,” whatever offense they may have committed. I have checked (That is so unfair, I know) and this quote is coming from the Washington Times and I can not find writings from her claiming that sweeping generalization; overall she is concentrating on the ones that she does deem to be political prisoners (don’t agree with several of her choices, but that is her opinion) and how is it that minorities get lousy legal aid that leads to their over-representation in prisons leading also to the the overcrowding of prisons that do have a political element for their growth thanks to the authorities. From there to declare that all black persons in prisons are political prisoners you need a better and bigger fat cite, and as we already found out, The Washington Times are “creative” with their “quotes” Here is a hint: even the reporter there only managed to put “political prisoner” in the quotes she made, whatever the reporter is claiming that she is pushing deserves better citations and yes, this time one has to consider the source specially after magellian got burned before by TWT before. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/31 "2012-03-12T21:12:42Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > That may be so, but she has used her position to do [some good things.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Obama#Work_undertaken_and_causes_promoted) No doubt. As I said, I like her and as you say, she is using her position to do positive things. But I suspect there are plenty of other black woman that visit homeless shelters and help advocate against childhood obesity. Those things aren’t why she’s on the list, she’s on the list because she married the guy that later became Prez. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/32 "2012-03-12T21:13:27Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Fine; you’re entitled to your opinion. It’s a free country. It is indeed my opinion that she is scum. But that is not reason enough to object to her inclusion on the wall. Yes, she was acquitted. I call bullshit, and Horowitz, who was a member of the radical left, offers an explanation that I find sensible. Still, no reason to keep her off. I mean, since she’s been acquitted, she’s as pure and wonderful an honoree as Rice, Obama, and the great Barbara Jordan. No, I’m not attempting to retry her for the crimes I think she got away with. But one should keep in mind, a verdict of “not guilty” does not always morally equate to a categorization of “innocent”. Surely you are ware that people slither through the justice system every day and receive a “not guilty” verdict due to the high burden our system requires for conviction. Happens every day. So, even though OJ Simpson was acquitted of the murder of his ex-wife, Nicole, would you have been fine with him being voted One of The Greatest Black Americans the next year? So I go back to my question you skipped. Giving your position of her the benefit of the doubt: > [@](#): > > Do you really think that having her included as one of the eight people raises the bar for greatness or lowers it? If you were celebrated on that wall, would you be prouder to have have her included with you or not? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/33 "2012-03-12T21:27:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It is indeed my opinion that she is scum. Fine by me; I have no particular interest in what you think of Angela Davis. I was just curious whether you had knowledge of any actual, factual evidence for believing that she’s **criminal** scum. Now that you’ve answered that question, you can go on complaining about Davis’s politics all day long for all I care. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/34 "2012-03-12T21:31:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Fine by me; I have no particular interest in what you think of Angela Davis. I was just curious whether you had knowledge of any actual, factual evidence for believing that she’s **criminal** scum. > > Now that you’ve answered that question, you can go on complaining about Davis’s politics all day long for all I care. So, you decided to ignore my larger point and spend your efforts challenging me that I must have found some new evidence that proved her guilt? uh…okay. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/35 "2012-03-12T21:34:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, you decided to ignore my larger point and spend your efforts challenging me that I must have found some new evidence that proved her guilt? > > uh…okay. :rolleyes: Your OP gave one reason that Davis should not be included: that she “played a role in the the kidnapping and killing of a judge from his courtroom.” If your larger point was just that her politics should disqualify her from being on the memorial regardless of her guilt or innocence regarding the kidnapping, you really could’ve made that more clear in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/36 "2012-03-12T21:35:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Shirley Chisolm > Patricia Roberts Hall > Barbara Jordan > Carol Mosley Braun > Fannie Lou Hamer > Condoleeza Rice > Michelle Obama > and… > > Angela Davis I am surprised they didn’t include Cynthia McKinney. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/37 "2012-03-12T21:36:33Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Your OP gave one reason that Davis should not be included: that she “played a role in the the kidnapping and killing of a judge from his courtroom.” If your larger point was just that her politics should disqualify her from being on the memorial regardless of her guilt or innocence regarding the kidnapping, you really could’ve made that more clear in the OP. That’s a fair point. But as a partial defense, I did include a link that gave a fuller picture. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/38 "2012-03-12T21:37:55Z")
The finer point yet to be resolved is why anyone on the face of God’s green Earth should give a shit what you personally think the “bar for black greatness” ought to be. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/39 "2012-03-12T21:47:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s a fair point. But as a partial defense, I did include a link that gave a fuller picture. I’m kinda sceptical the best way to learn about Davis’s politics is that not exactly even-handed article. But in anycase, I’m not sure it should matter. The wall is for great black political leaders. Its sort of the nature of such a thing that the woman depicted are going to have strong political views, and that a good sized segment of the US population is going to disagree with those views. For example, lots of people think Condolezza Rice lied to start a war that ended up costing the US trillions of dollars, thousands of lives and killed who knows how many Iraqis. But even if you agree with that, I think its undeniable that she was a formidable female black political leader. Similarly, Davis was a vocal and influential black political leader, and so belongs on the wall. That you (and I) disagree with her views isn’t really the point. And as I said, I actually like Davis on the wall for a seperate reason. Unlike the others, she was specifically associated with reform of the US judicial system, so being on the wall of a federal court house seems fitting. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575/40 "2012-03-12T21:48:24Z")
> [@Vinyl Turnip](#): > > The finer point yet to be resolved is why anyone on the face of God’s green Earth should give a shit what you personally think the “bar for black greatness” ought to be. I see no reason to be so specific. I can’t imagine why anyone would give a shit what he thinks about anything. There are very few people whom I’m so entirely certain have absolutely nothing to say that I could possibly find interesting, illuminating or even amusing that I have them on ignore, but he’s been one of them for about ever. I can’t remember seeing anything from him that wasn’t a steaming pile of worthlessness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-this-is-what-some-think-points-to-black-greatness/615575.md?page=3)