# So Trump may have avoided paying taxes by carrying over a huge loss. So what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563 "2016-10-03T13:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/21 "2016-10-03T16:12:52Z")
> [@Lancia](#): > > Pretty much this. The issue isn’t that Trump cheated or broke the law—the consensus is that he didn’t—but that these glimpses into his tax returns (along with the extant ones we already have thanks to his casino dealings) show that he’s a hypocrite. > > From my chair, a big part of Trump’s campaign is about money… hes super duper rich so that means he’s smart. He’s a businessman so that means he’d make a better president than someone who isn’t. NATO countries don’t pay their fare share, there is trade deficit… it goes on. A significant part of his rhetoric is, basically, the world takes advantage of us, convincing us to foot the bill. As a result we (and him) are getting the shaft because we pay taxes for failed programs and useless spending. It seems to be part of his “outsider” image. [This is nothing new,](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/03/us/politics/trump-taxes-twitter.html?_r=0) as he’s criticized people (including Obama) for not paying more in federal income taxes for years. > > But now it appears that, unless he coughs up the rest of his return to prove otherwise, that he’s been bitching about the a crippling tax burden that for him personally simply doesn’t exist. > > Complaining that Obama “only pays 20.5% on $790k salary” as he pays $0 while simultaneously bragging about being a multi-billionaire is the issue at hand. Thus the criticism. I don’t see him as a hypocrite. If you think that the government spends your tax money to do good and could do more good with more money, that it is hypocritical to try to minimize that tax being paid. However, if you think the government wastes most of your tax money and you could do more good by keeping more of your money, then there is nothing wrong with minimizing your taxes. Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with someone who thinks taxes are mostly wasted criticizing a tax increaser for not voluntarily paying more in taxes. Hillary has taken deductions for carried over losses in capital gains, so she obviously does not think it is an evil thing to do. It helps our economy by allowing businesses to smooth taxes over a longer period and gives allows businesses to create more investments and take more chances. What it doesn’t show is that he is some super businessman who has the Midas touch for business. He took a huge risk to go into the casino business and he lost a huge amount of money when that business failed. However, anyone who has been paying attention already knew that. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/22 "2016-10-03T16:16:45Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > If Buffett wanted to pay more he could just restructure his compensation toward salary. You’re missing the point completely. Buffett isn’t saying that he himself should be paying more taxes. He’s saying that he, _and other people like him_, should be paying more taxes. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/23 "2016-10-03T16:17:39Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > There is well-supported speculation (based on the incomplete tax return) than the $900B+ was NOT a cash or asset loss, but paper losses. If that’s true, Trump got to write off taxes on nearly a billion in income because of an essentially phantom business loss. > > Welcome to the world of the 0.001%. What is the difference between a paper loss and an actual loss? The speculation that I have heard is that he probably got much of the 900 million loss forgiven and so he was not able to claim the entire loss in subsequent years. The stories have all said that Trump may not have paid any taxes since the loss, not that he has not paid any taxes. If he got much of the loss forgiven, then he has probably been paying taxes depending on how much he actually earned and how much was forgiven. It is impossible to know until more recent tax returns are made public. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/24 "2016-10-03T16:18:38Z")
So Trump lost a billion dollars and wants to be president. Can’t you guys find a businessman who _didn’t_ lose a billion dollars and talk him into running for president? ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/25 "2016-10-03T16:19:42Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > You’re missing the point completely. Buffett isn’t saying that he himself should be paying more taxes. He’s saying that he, _and other people like him_, should be paying more taxes. He does not have control over what other people pay, he has control over what he pays. I take the fact he does not pay more as a more accurate description of his feelings on taxes than what he says. Buffett is always talking his book and so may not always be reliable. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/26 "2016-10-03T16:19:46Z")
I assume Bill and Hillary will come under equal condemnation for using [the same deduction](http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/10/wow-hypocrite-hillary-clinton-used-tax-avoidance-law-trump-avoid-paying-taxes-2015/) last year as Trump did twenty years ago. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/27 "2016-10-03T16:23:12Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume Bill and Hillary will come under equal condemnation for using [the same deduction](http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/10/wow-hypocrite-hillary-clinton-used-tax-avoidance-law-trump-avoid-paying-taxes-2015/) last year as Trump did twenty years ago. > > Regards, > Shodan How much did she pay that year, and in the following years? Come on, Paul Harvey-I want to hear The Rest Of The Story. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/28 "2016-10-03T16:29:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I assume Bill and Hillary will come under equal condemnation for using [the same deduction](http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/10/wow-hypocrite-hillary-clinton-used-tax-avoidance-law-trump-avoid-paying-taxes-2015/) last year as Trump did twenty years ago. > > Regards, > Shodan [From here.](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/clinton-2015-tax-return-226957) > [@](#): > > In 2015, Bill and Hillary Clinton paid an effective federal income tax rate of 34.2 percent on an adjusted gross income of $10,594,529. Their combined effective rate — including state and local taxes — was 43.2 percent. The Clintons donated $1.04 million, or 9.8 percent of their income, to charity. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/29 "2016-10-03T16:35:26Z")
This entire thing just seems like a complete non-issue to me. If anyone peruses his tax forms and finds that he violated the law, then I’ll say it’s bad, but without looking at it or having the knowledge to do so, I haven’t heard any such complaints yet, so I’m inclined to believe that with his army of tax experts, it’s probably in compliance with the law. What does it say about his genius? IMO, nothing. Sometimes big losses happen, even with a well informed decision. Similarly, sometimes people get lucky with stupid decisions. How many well-informed people play the lottery for any reason more than fun? To use a poker analogy, if someone has a big hand and successfully figures a bluff and calls an all-in bet, but the bluffer sucks out, the guy who lost still made the right decision, he just got unlucky. What makes a good business man isn’t generally one call, unless it completely ruins him, it’s the totality of those decisions. Really, this isn’t even telling us anything we didn’t already know. It’s been pretty common knowledge the Trump has had some big losses but more or less recovered. So, really, it seems to me that if you already thought he was a great business man, you don’t see much issue here, and if you thought he was a bad one, it’s really just reconfirming what you’d already made your decision on. So, really, I don’t see this really switching anyone’s mind on him in that regard. What does it say about his view on taxes? IMO, nothing. As long as he’s not going afoul of the laws, that he has the resources to save money, only really tells us that he does. I think for pretty much anyone at that level, a relatively small investment to save millions on taxes is reasonable. Does anyone DELIBERATELY pay more in taxes than they have to? If so, frankly, I’d rather them pick a charity whose mission they believe in and write a check there instead of to the government. I think there’s a point to be made about tax corruption for a politician that is supported by certain industries helps to make rules to support them and themselves once they get out of office, but Trump didn’t make the rules. Similarly, nor do I see him as “smart” for finding the loop holes. Everyone who has the means to do so finds the loopholes, and the more means they have, the more they find. When you get up high enough, all of the corrupt tax rules to support various interest groups are likely to also affect you, and you benefit without having fed into the system. So, again, I see it as a wash. So, yeah, I just see this as a whole lot of nothing that will, for most people who’ve already decided, just reinforce the narrative they’ve already bought into. Most of the people I’ve talked to either don’t understand the issue at all, already made up their mind so it has no influence, or have a similar thought process to what I laid out and, if anything, see it as a distraction from other issues they’d rather be hearing about. So, I just don’t see this as having any real impact on the undecided or third party voters. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/30 "2016-10-03T16:38:58Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > : So Trump may have avoided paying taxes by carrying over a huge loss. So what? It wouldn’t have been such a huge issue except Trump keeps refusing to reveal his tax returns, as it customary- _and lying about it_. So, he’s hiding something. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/31 "2016-10-03T16:42:39Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > He does not have control over what other people pay, he has control over what he pays. Sure he does, Buffett has been supporting politicians who would raise the taxes on those people. On the other hand, Trump is trying to get into a position where he himself has control over what other people pay. Has he stated any intent to change the laws and make the tax system more fair and progressive? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/32 "2016-10-03T16:44:47Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > This entire thing just seems like a complete non-issue to me. But Benghazi and EmailGate keep you up nights? Trump’s whole campaign is being run on how incredibly wealthy he is based on how incredibly sharp a businessman he is, bolstered by his claims of large-scale donations to charity. So if his tax returns show him to be of much more modest wealth, created as much by financial manipulations, tax breaks and bankruptcies as by being such a brilliant deal-broker, and charitable donations matching those around the upper 99%'s… not to mention gleeful, willing use of every tax loophole instead of paying the substantial returns that both the Obamas and Clintons pay… what again is the basis for making him President? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/33 "2016-10-03T16:45:28Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > So, yeah, I just see this as a whole lot of nothing that will, for most people who’ve already decided, just reinforce the narrative they’ve already bought into. Most of the people I’ve talked to either don’t understand the issue at all, already made up their mind so it has no influence, or have a similar thought process to what I laid out and, if anything, see it as a distraction from other issues they’d rather be hearing about. So, I just don’t see this as having any real impact on the undecided or third party voters. As I posted even before this tax form was found, most voters have reported that they will not change their vote alright. **But** , one of the problems of staying close is that then this issue will undermine Trump with the independents and the ones on the fence significantly when he needs them the most. > **[Yes, Voters Care About Donald Trump's Tax Returns](https://fortune.com/2016/08/05/trump-tax-return-voters/)** > > Voters care about whether or not Donald Trump releases his tax returns, and what is in them. > [@](#): > > According to data collected for Fortune by polling firm Morning Consult, the answer is yes for a significant number of people. > > Among 1,931 registered voters polled, 45% said that not releasing a tax return made them view Trump less favorably. **Furthermore, 37% of likely voters said it made them less likely to vote or him**. Those numbers are essentially the same for independent voters, a constituency that Trump needs to win over, and one that an outsider candidacy could in theory do well in. AFAIK in recent polls the numbers have increased for the ones that want Trump to release his taxes, it is more likely that the numbers of the voters that would change their vote if Trump does not release his taxes has increased too. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/34 "2016-10-03T16:45:55Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > What does it say about his view on taxes? IMO, nothing. As long as he’s not going afoul of the laws, that he has the resources to save money, only really tells us that he does. I agree. But what he says about it _does_ say a lot about his view on taxes. As far as I know, he hasn’t said anything to the effect of “These tax laws are unfair, and if I’m elected President, I’ll work to try to close these loopholes.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/35 "2016-10-03T16:46:37Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > On the other hand, Trump is trying to get into a position where he himself has control over what other people pay. Has he stated any intent to change the laws and make the tax system more fair and progressive? And more to the point, has he _ever_ made a deal where he didn’t try to come out ahead personally in the end, no matter what he promised initially? Does he have any experience at all acting for the good of others? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/36 "2016-10-03T16:54:34Z")
I think it’s a perfectly valid criticism to point out that Trump lost nearly a billion freakin’ dollars that year, all while he’s making himself out to be some kind of business genius. On the other hand, I think it’s shitty of the Democrats to harp on the idea that he may not have paid any taxes at all for several years after that, as if that’s a bad thing. Of course if you have giant losses then you get to offset those against your profits, this is not only legal but perfectly normal (as others have pointed out, Bill and Hilary did the same thing themselves). They’re playing to the lowest common denominator, the people who will be outraged without even understanding why. In other words, trying to fan the flames of the ignorant. I think that’s a little shitty, and would rather see her take the high road by simply pointing out all the ways he’s a business failure. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/37 "2016-10-03T16:55:32Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And more to the point, has he _ever_ made a deal where he didn’t try to come out ahead personally in the end, no matter what he promised initially? Does he have any experience at all acting for the good of others? _Ding ding ding ding ding ding…_ Trump has a lifetime history of being first and foremost for Trump, D.J., even at the expense of crushing other investors or leaving suppliers to tumble into bankruptcy. I’m sure he will change completely upon being sworn in. After he turns his entire empire over to a blind trust. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/38 "2016-10-03T16:58:04Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I agree. But what he says about it _does_ say a lot about his view on taxes. As far as I know, he hasn’t said anything to the effect of “These tax laws are unfair, and if I’m elected President, I’ll work to try to close these loopholes.” Except those laws in particular aren’t unfair, and they’re not loopholes. If you lose a giant pile of money so that your income is negative, you don’t have to pay taxes that year, and you can carry over the loss to offset your profits in future years. Godammit, I hate being in the position of sounding like I’m defending Trump. Just criticize him for something valid; lord knows you have plenty of material. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/39 "2016-10-03T17:05:07Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Except those laws in particular aren’t unfair, and they’re not loopholes. If you lose a giant pile of money so that your income is negative, you don’t have to pay taxes that year, and you can carry over the loss to offset your profits in future years. See above (and news analysis elsewhere): it’s very likely that Trump didn’t lose $900M except on paper, which IMVHO should not be allowed to offset a further billion in real income. If I gamble for three hours at a Trump casino, starting with $100 and walking out with $200 but at one point having $1M in chips on the table, I’d didn’t “lose a million dollars” and nobody owes me nothing because of it. A lot of Trump’s deals are like that: phantom valuations because his dear, dear name is on the front in shiny letters; someone else’s fault when the reckoning shows huge losses for everyone but Trump. All he has to do is publish his returns, and we’d all have to shut up, awed by his greatness… right? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/40 "2016-10-03T17:09:54Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [From here.](http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/clinton-2015-tax-return-226957) > [@](#): > > In 2015, Bill and Hillary Clinton paid an effective federal income tax rate of 34.2 percent on an adjusted gross income of $10,594,529. Their combined effective rate — including state and local taxes — was 43.2 percent. The Clintons donated $1.04 million, or 9.8 percent of their income, to charity. And besides recently finding that Trump lost a billion dollars and that he likely did not pay taxes for decades, we also have found what a miser Trump is with the money he gives to charity. The miser qualification happens by taking into account the alleged wealth that he is supposed to have now. **Unless he has lied about that too** , that figures… That charity item also reminded me about what Trump considers to be the worthy charities that need his support: > **[Donald Trump Charity Gave to Jenny McCarthy’s Anti-Vaxx Crusade](https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-charity-gave-to-jenny-mccarthys-anti-vaxx-crusade)** > > Not only has the Republican nominee repeated junk science about vaccines, but he’s also given money to help the dangerous cause. > [@](#): > > Donald Trump Charity Gave to Jenny McCarthy’s Anti-Vaxx Crusade > > McCarthy’s charity promotes “alternative vaccination physicians” and has a grant program to provide families with autistic children with vitamins, minerals, and supplements; urine testing; and “dietary intervention training.” She has also claimed that her son has recovered from vaccine-triggered autism because of so-called biomedical treatment: She changed his diet, gave him vitamins, and “detoxed” his body from metals. > > The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has said that there is no link between vaccination and autism, and those advocating for higher immunization rates charge that McCarthy is not only promoting a dangerous concept, but also brands those on the autistic spectrum as damaged individuals. > > “Generation Rescue supports many terrible theories concerning vaccines, and also promotes autism as something with a stigma, something parents should fear more than measles,” said Karen Ernst, the executive director of Voices for Vaccines, which promotes scientific vaccination information. > > But facts and science haven’t stopped Trump from spreading debunked theories. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563.md?page=3)