# So Trump may have avoided paying taxes by carrying over a huge loss. So what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563 "2016-10-03T13:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/81 "2016-10-03T20:04:28Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > People can legally avoid paying taxes. But they should not expect to be elected president. Behavior that disqualifies candidates does not have to rise to the level of criminal conduct. The tax issues aren’t really at the core of things; despite a rising tide of snark no one is claiming that what Trump did was illegal. Yep, you can write off losses. It’s the losses that should trouble his supporters. Dude manages to **lose $900-odd million** through what he admitted was vastly overpaying for a casino and a fleet of jets. He fucked up. Mr. Deal. Mr. “I’m such a badass businessman everyone on Wall St should just suck my toes, oh, and elect me Prez” made a couple of deals so bad they made a billion bucks go up in smoke. Not because times were hard or someone outmaneuvered him, just because the casino and airline were stupid, high-risk investments only an egomaniac could have thrown so much money at. So he lost a billion bux, boo-hoo. Does he suck it up and comfort himself with his other five or eight or ten billion? Nope. He restructures all the accounting so that his bad judgment becomes “net operating loss” and thus destroys the value of the related stock (wiping out the other investors), declares bankruptcy to allow further “restructuring,” pays himself some $80 million in the process, and then uses the loss to offset his next billion earned - over a decade of paying no federal taxes because he blew an immense three-card-monte hustle bet. So absolutely everyone else in the US took a hit of some size except… Donald Trump, who blew his own deals. I don’t care if it was all legal; it’s all pure sleaze and self-preservation at the cost of everyone else involved. So Donny is not the infallible super hot-shot deal maker he claims to be, not by $916 million or so, and has the morals of the Brooklyn loan shark his father was. And \*anyone \*thinks he’s suited to the Oval Office? Oh, and remind me what the valuations involved in Whitewater were… $100k or so? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/82 "2016-10-03T20:05:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And Trump has reported that he will cut taxes even more for his kind and end the inheritance tax. Which explains why his kids are so desperately trying to save this train-wreck of a campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/83 "2016-10-03T20:07:07Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because you don’t understand math and you think framing the argument in terms of percentages is advantageous for your political preferences. Oh, I do understand math. Like that a homeless veteran in 1995 may have contributed more to his own VA medical care than did Donald Trump. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/84 "2016-10-03T20:12:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Oh, I do understand math. Like that a homeless veteran in 1995 may have contributed more to his own VA medical care than did Donald Trump. Homeless vet. That’s some heavy emotional imagery. ---
**Author:** ![lucid-nonsense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2acd7d/32.png) [@lucid-nonsense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lucid-nonsense)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/85 "2016-10-03T20:12:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah that stop sign has value proportional to my wealth. > > What percentage of total taxes paid as a function of earned income do the poor pay? If they have no job and receive no earned income and pay $500 per annum in sales tax their tax rate is infinite as a function of earned income. > > How’s that fair? $500/$0 is vastly larger than $3,000,000/$20,000,000. Yet that $3,000,000 does vastly more for society than that $500. Framing it in terms of percentages is just a mechanism to manipulate the same electorate that thinks we could legislate wealth by increasing minimum wage. How did you make all your money? If you have a retail chain, you benefit more from roads. If you have an engineering company, you benefit more from patent protections. If you have a law firm, you benefit more from the legal system. If you have a factory, you benefit more from public utilities. All businesses leverage public infrastructure to some degree. (Which is perfectly fine, that’s what it’s there for.) And just by being rich, it means you have more stuff to steal, so you benefit more from the protection from the police and the army. You also benefited more from the bank bailout if you had any money that could’ve been lost. The completely self-made man is a myth. Not saying personal talent and effort has nothing to do with it, but building a massive corporation, for example, would be impossible without society and the various resources that underpin it, a lot of which are publicly funded. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/86 "2016-10-03T20:12:53Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > How is that fair? Most people pay taxes based on their net income in each individual tax year. I don’t know how it works in Trump’s case but I know how it works for capital gains. If you have a net capital gain–that is, you make money from long-term investments–in a year, you pay tax on those gains (at a lower rate than “ordinary income”–money you make by working, dividends, interest). But let’s say you invested a million bucks in Fannie Mae stock, and then the price goes from $60 a share to $0.60. You sell your stock, and realize a loss of a shitload of money. You can only apply $3000 of those losses to your money made by working, and the rest can only be used against other capital gains. So if you still have losses left, you can save it for the following year, and once again apply it against other capital gains, or up to $3000 of ordinary income. Normally, most people don’t have a loss except for such a capital investment loss. I do not know what happens if you have something like a loss in an S corporation. And I know nothing about Trump’s loss, but if you look at the return you will see that his wages are only $6,000. He made $7 million in interest income. He stated over $1 million in capital losses (plus another $3000 carryover from the prior year). I have no idea what accounts for yet another $900K in losses on line 15, “Other”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/87 "2016-10-03T20:18:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Homeless vet. That’s some heavy emotional imagery. Well, Donald has such a high regard for the vets. The ones that didn’t get captured. And the ones that don’t have PTSD because they’re strong. And the vets are the best – the best. They’re great. And the way Obama has treated them – sad! Because Donald understands military service, what with his reform school background that was actually tougher than the training that sent draftees to the Vietnam war – he had the best training. But I guess he didn’t have to contribute anything to the VA’s coffers for many years. Smart! ETA: but let’s remember that you said I don’t understand math. When Donald Trump pays zero income taxes, how much exactly does that help the VA? I can’t wait to hear your answer, and please show your work. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/88 "2016-10-03T20:21:24Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Anyone who has taken a bonafide tax deduction has legally avoided paying taxes. But they don’t avoid all taxes. There’s the difference. I would even say that someone who pays a much lower tax rate than the voters he is trying to persuade will have an uphill battle. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/89 "2016-10-03T20:24:49Z")
> [@](#): > > According to a Trump tax return obtained and authenticated by the New York Times, Trump declared a huge loss in 1995. This loss could be carried over to subsequent years to offset income, and possibly have excused him from paying taxes for 18 years, according to analysts engaged by the Times. If he’s really (legally) ridden this for 18 years, then that means that he has literally not made any money, on net, for that entire span of 19 years, and possibly more. A man who loudly proclaims his own business genius worked for nearly two decades, and still managed not to earn one cent. In other words, I have made more in the past month as a substitute teacher than Donald Trump has in two decades as the public face of conspicuous wealth. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/90 "2016-10-03T20:31:39Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So Trump lost a billion dollars and wants to be president. Can’t you guys find a businessman who _didn’t_ lose a billion dollars and talk him into running for president? I rarely see liberal politicians argue that being a good businessman isn’t good experience for running a government. I guess they’re afraid they would sound like dirty commies, or maybe they believe the narrative themselves. Instead, they try to attack their opponent’s business credentials. I wonder what happens when a genius capitalist does come along to save us. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/91 "2016-10-03T20:39:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If he’s really (legally) ridden this for 18 years, then that means that he has literally not made any money, on net, for that entire span of 19 years, and possibly more. A man who loudly proclaims his own business genius worked for nearly two decades, and still managed not to earn one cent. In other words, I have made more in the past month as a substitute teacher than Donald Trump has in two decades as the public face of conspicuous wealth. That’s earned income … set up a corporation in Bermuda and have the corporation contract out your teaching services … pay yourself minimum wage (= $0 income tax) and bring the corporate profit into the USA as dividends … you’ll manage substantial tax savings in such a set up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/92 "2016-10-03T20:39:27Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I rarely see liberal politicians argue that being a good businessman isn’t good experience for running a government. I guess they’re afraid they would sound like dirty commies, or maybe they believe the narrative themselves. Instead, they try to attack their opponent’s business credentials. I wonder what happens when a genius capitalist does come along to save us. We’ll find out when one actually runs for the office, won’t we? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/93 "2016-10-03T21:03:14Z")
> [@lucid-nonsense](#): > > How did you make all your money? If you have a retail chain, you benefit more from roads. If you have an engineering company, you benefit more from patent protections. If you have a law firm, you benefit more from the legal system. If you have a factory, you benefit more from public utilities. All businesses leverage public infrastructure to some degree. (Which is perfectly fine, that’s what it’s there for.) > > And just by being rich, it means you have more stuff to steal, so you benefit more from the protection from the police and the army. You also benefited more from the bank bailout if you had any money that could’ve been lost. > > The completely self-made man is a myth. Not saying personal talent and effort has nothing to do with it, but building a massive corporation, for example, would be impossible without society and the various resources that underpin it, a lot of which are publicly funded. And how does the “public” get the funds? From productive or unproductive elements of society? ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/94 "2016-10-03T21:14:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, Donald has such a high regard for the vets. The ones that didn’t get captured. And the ones that don’t have PTSD because they’re strong. And now the ones that didn’t kill themselves because they could handle it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/95 "2016-10-03T21:36:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And how does the “public” get the funds? From productive or unproductive elements of society? Well, apparently someone you think is productive really doesn’t have to contribute much to public needs, so your question is a really good one. Guess we better raise more money from the unproductive elements of society. (Defined as 50% of the population, maybe including Trump or maybe not.) ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/96 "2016-10-03T22:23:38Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Because you don’t understand math and you think framing the argument in terms of percentages is advantageous for your political preferences. I understand math a lot better than you do, and I also understand behavioral economics. What is important is to equalize the pain of paying taxes. The average household income in the US is $51,939 - I paid an amount in taxes last year that was a good chunk of that - over 50%. It didn’t hurt at all. Someone making that amount and paying the taxes I pay would be hurt a lot - probably to the point of not affording housing or food. In fact just percentages is not enough - as you have more money, the value of each additional dollar in the sense of providing for what you need goes down. For Bill Gates $51 K is in the noise. That’s why we have progressive taxation. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/97 "2016-10-03T22:55:34Z")
He’s getting cheers from the [Starve the Beast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast) crowd. I don’t know why someone does not ask him to take his tax avoidance strategy to it’s logical end-point where, like him, we all are able to avoid paying taxes. Who’s gonna cough-up when the military comes calling for their paychecks? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/98 "2016-10-03T23:06:13Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > He’s getting cheers from the [Starve the Beast](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast) crowd. > > I don’t know why someone does not ask him to take his tax avoidance strategy to it’s logical end-point where, like him, we all are able to avoid paying taxes. Who’s gonna cough-up when the military comes calling for their paychecks? “All you soldiers are _weak!_ You’re doing a _bad_ job! No pay for you!” ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/99 "2016-10-03T23:09:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I understand math a lot better than you do, and I also understand behavioral economics. What is important is to equalize the pain of paying taxes. The average household income in the US is $51,939 - I paid an amount in taxes last year that was a good chunk of that - over 50%. It didn’t hurt at all. Someone making that amount and paying the taxes I pay would be hurt a lot - probably to the point of not affording housing or food. > > In fact just percentages is not enough - as you have more money, the value of each additional dollar in the sense of providing for what you need goes down. For Bill Gates $51 K is in the noise. That’s why we have progressive taxation. You understand math better than me? So you claim. Progressive taxation is not the universal situation. That has to do with income tax. That doesn’t apply to sales tax. Which are regressive in practice. Or gasoline tax. Or social security tax. And who says that the goal is to equalize pain? That’s merely your opinion. Do you buy goods from China? Produce picked by illegal immigrants? Apple or GE products? You read the NYT? Do you take advantage of tax deferred accounts like 401k, 529, or 403bs? Do you pay sales tax on goods bought on the internet? Do you behave as you advocate? ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/100 "2016-10-03T23:14:01Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Well, apparently someone you think is productive really doesn’t have to contribute much to public needs, so your question is a really good one. Guess we better raise more money from the unproductive elements of society. (Defined as 50% of the population, maybe including Trump or maybe not.) Sum all the taxes Trump pays not just federal income. You think that number is lesser or greater than the average tax payer? Trump might not have the business savvy of Clinton with her ability to profit off of cattle futures. But he’s trying. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563.md?page=6)