# So Trump may have avoided paying taxes by carrying over a huge loss. So what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563 "2016-10-03T13:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/101 "2016-10-03T23:16:46Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Except those laws in particular aren’t unfair, and they’re not loopholes. If you lose a giant pile of money so that your income is negative, you don’t have to pay taxes that year, and you can carry over the loss to offset your profits in future years. > > Godammit, I hate being in the position of sounding like I’m defending Trump. Just criticize him for something valid; lord knows you have plenty of material. So why not explain why this is fair? I still don’t see it. You fucked up and caused a loss. Obviously you don’t pay on that (you’d pay negative money). But why is it fair that you get to make up that loss without paying taxes? Why is the tax system easing the burden of losses? Seems like welfare to me. It would be one thing if you paid taxes ahead of time, and then you didn’t make as much as you thought. Then it’s like an income tax return. Those make sense for average people who overpay in taxes. I’m not even saying that this is horrible. I can see how some people might want this type of welfare to help out a small business who went through a rough patch. But it wouldn’t be fair–it would be generous. And, since we’re being generous, why not put a cap on it, so we don’t wind up helping out some rich fat cat avoid taxes because he can make a huge paper loss? Or, better yet, why not count net worth against the loss? Only if the loss is actually a burden on you becuase it’s X% of your wealth can it be used as a future deduction. Anything to avoid rich people who can take huge losses and still be okay, yet then use those losses to avoid paying taxes. You’re just incentivizing the already rich to fuck shit up. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/102 "2016-10-03T23:20:54Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > So why not explain why this is fair? I still don’t see it. You fucked up and caused a loss. Obviously you don’t pay on that (you’d pay negative money). But why is it fair that you get to make up that loss without paying taxes? Why is the tax system easing the burden of losses? Seems like welfare to me. > > It would be one thing if you paid taxes ahead of time, and then you didn’t make as much as you thought. Then it’s like an income tax return. Those make sense for average people who overpay in taxes. > > I’m not even saying that this is horrible. I can see how some people might want this type of welfare to help out a small business who went through a rough patch. But it wouldn’t be fair–it would be generous. And, since we’re being generous, why not put a cap on it, so we don’t wind up helping out some rich fat cat avoid taxes because he can make a huge paper loss? > > Or, better yet, why not count net worth against the loss? Only if the loss is actually a burden on you becuase it’s X% of your wealth can it be used as a future deduction. > > Anything to avoid rich people who can take huge losses and still be okay, yet then use those losses to avoid paying taxes. You’re just incentivizing the already rich to fuck shit up. Because net worth isn’t worth dollars unless it’s held in actual dollars until it’s sold ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/103 "2016-10-03T23:26:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Sum all the taxes Trump pays not just federal income. You think that number is lesser or greater than the average tax payer? Sounds like you’re trying to make me feel sorry that Trump hasn’t figured out a way to avoid paying payroll taxes, and be declared a super-mega genius. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/104 "2016-10-03T23:27:46Z")
You can also deduct gambling losses from your gambling winnings. You people don’t know this stuff? Ever done your own taxes? How old are you? And to think I used to criticize Conservatives for having a kindergartner-lemon-aid-stand-level understanding of taxation… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/105 "2016-10-03T23:34:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Sounds like you’re trying to make me feel sorry that Trump hasn’t figured out a way to avoid paying payroll taxes, and be declared a super-mega genius. Feel how you wish. It’s your life. I’m just not concerned with Trump taking advantage of the law for his benefit. Hillary broke the law for her benefit. But somehow that doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/106 "2016-10-03T23:35:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Anything to avoid rich people who can take huge losses and still be okay, yet then use those losses to avoid paying taxes. You’re just incentivizing the already rich to fuck shit up. But, but - you are forgetting that it’s the rich people who are the job creators! We can’t have them privatizing losses, only profits! (while losses can be socialized to the rest of us). ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/107 "2016-10-03T23:35:59Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > But, but - you are forgetting that it’s the rich people who are the job creators! We can’t have them privatizing losses, only profits! (while losses can be socialized to the rest of us). Do you own any mutual funds? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/108 "2016-10-03T23:40:44Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > You might want to think about why Trump is so dead set about not releasing his returns if they would show him to be an upright citizen. Now that the “big paper loss that gives him a Get Out Of Paying Taxes Free card for two decades” thing is out in the open, the fact that he _still_ isn’t releasing his returns can only mean that there’s something even _more_ embarrassing (or worse) in them. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/109 "2016-10-03T23:42:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > $900 million is a lot of money to lose in a year. It’s a damn near impossible amount to lose in a year when a monkey throwing darts at the _Wall Street Journal_ could have picked a winning portfolio. Maybe that’s what NounVerbNineEleven Man meant by calling Trump a “genius”. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/110 "2016-10-03T23:46:58Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Feel how you wish. It’s your life. I’m just not concerned with Trump taking advantage of the law for his benefit. Hillary broke the law for her benefit. But somehow that doesn’t matter. Actually, it’s like Trump supporters have taken all the weakest Clinton talking points and are just repeating them in a new context - “There’s no proof any law was broken!” Sad! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/111 "2016-10-03T23:49:04Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Actually, it’s like Trump supporters have taken all the weakest Clinton talking points and are just repeating them in a new context - “There’s no proof any law was broken!” > > Sad! What fun is it conceding that Hillary has won already? What we got 5 more weeks? How are we going to fill the time? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/112 "2016-10-03T23:50:55Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Now that the “big paper loss that gives him a Get Out Of Paying Taxes Free card for two decades” thing is out in the open, the fact that he _still_ isn’t releasing his returns can only mean that there’s something even _more_ embarrassing (or worse) in them. That’s the only reason I can think of for him not releasing all his tax returns at this point. I really, _really_ want him to release them, though - I want to see what epic levels of jiggery-pokery and financial chicanery his accountants were up to! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/113 "2016-10-03T23:55:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Feel how you wish. It’s your life. I’m just not concerned with Trump taking advantage of the law for his benefit. Hillary broke the law for her benefit. But somehow that doesn’t matter. Cite that Hillary broke the law? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/114 "2016-10-03T23:55:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yeah that stop sign has value proportional to my wealth. Yep; a decrease in the likelihood that you will be T-boned at an intersection benefits you far more if you’re driving a 2016 Lamborghini than if you’re driving a 1996 Taurus. Pay up. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/115 "2016-10-03T23:58:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What fun is it conceding that Hillary has won already? What we got 5 more weeks? How are we going to fill the time? We could follow Gandhi’s advice and only speak if it improves upon the silence. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2016, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/116 "2016-10-03T23:59:45Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > And how does the “public” get the funds? From productive or unproductive elements of society? The question before us is whether the productive (e.g. actual successful businesspeople) or unproductive (e.g. “geniuses” who lose almost a billion dollars in the middle of the 1990s boom) elements of society should be entrusted with political management. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/117 "2016-10-04T00:50:05Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > You understand math better than me? So you claim. > > Progressive taxation is not the universal situation. That has to do with income tax. That doesn’t apply to sales tax. Which are regressive in practice. Or gasoline tax. Or social security tax. I never said all taxes are progressive. Sales taxes are regressive. Social security can be made somewhat more progressive by increasing the cap, but it is progressive in that you get less per dollar you put in as you approach the maximum payout. > [@](#): > > And who says that the goal is to equalize pain? That’s merely your opinion. Perhaps I was assuming you cared about fairness. If you want the 1% to do better and the 99% to suffer more, the Trump plan is the one for you. > [@](#): > > Do you buy goods from China? Produce picked by illegal immigrants? Apple or GE products? You read the NYT? Do you take advantage of tax deferred accounts like 401k, 529, or 403bs? Do you pay sales tax on goods bought on the internet? Do you behave as you advocate? Actually, I avoid Apple products, and WalMart too. I fail to see why reading the NY Times puts you in the 1% (I wish). I actually get it delivered, which I’m especially happy about since my subscription dollars help pay for reporters who get Trump’s tax returns. I’m in California, and buy from Amazon, so I do indeed pay sales tax on my purchases. 401Ks and other accounts have upper limits, which make them reasonably progressive. You forgot the mortgage deduction. The tax code is so complicated because of social policy built in. I’m all in favor of simplifying it, but if we do it we had better get rid of the loopholes before we set the rate. And none of that has anything to do with the benefits of progressive taxation. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/118 "2016-10-04T00:52:59Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Now that the “big paper loss that gives him a Get Out Of Paying Taxes Free card for two decades” thing is out in the open, the fact that he _still_ isn’t releasing his returns can only mean that there’s something even _more_ embarrassing (or worse) in them. **puddleglum** ’s guess that he is not releasing them because he isn’t a billionaire might be right. And maybe you are both right. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/119 "2016-10-04T00:58:57Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Actually, I avoid Apple products, and WalMart too. I fail to see why reading the NY Times puts you in the 1% (I wish). I actually get it delivered, which I’m especially happy about since my subscription dollars help pay for reporters who get Trump’s tax returns. Wow. If you’re that responsible consumer, you must be missing out on a lot of quality Trump products. Don’t you ever have a hankering to pay $80 for a USDA Choice-grade steak raised by Dalit in India? The package has the word TRUMP right on it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/120 "2016-10-04T00:58:59Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Feel how you wish. It’s your life. I’m just not concerned with Trump taking advantage of the law for his benefit. Hillary broke the law for her benefit. But somehow that doesn’t matter. Who is saying that Trump broke the law here? If he had, the IRS would have nabbed him long ago - but this is probably why they audit him every damn year, which former IRS people say is very unusual. Now he did break the law by using Foundation money for his personal benefit, and probably in Trump U, and probably in some of the immigration violations like with the models. But this stuff either shows he’s a crappy businessman who lost a bundle one year, or a sneaky one using tax dodges to avoid paying anything while living a high life, so the “productive” little people get to take up the slack. And then I bet he complained about the deficit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563.md?page=7)