# So Trump may have avoided paying taxes by carrying over a huge loss. So what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2016, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563 "2016-10-03T13:57:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/121 "2016-10-04T00:59:43Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > I don’t know why this is such a pungent point of criticism against Trump. He is not a tax evader; he is simply using our broken tax system against itself. Point the first: He’s partially running on his acumen as a businessman, and he lost a sum amounting to nearly (in GD, being on my last warning, I’d best phrase it as) A BILLION MOTHER HUMPING DOLLARS. Obligatory cite, this was [2% of all US business losses that year.](http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/305415/trumps-so-bad-at-business-1995-loss-was-two-percent-of-us/) On a CASINO. How does anybody lose money on a casino, much less 2% of all business losses in a very lucrative year for business in the US? Point the second: Someone will have already mentioned this downthread, but if we’re all A-OK with Trump legally gaming the system to avoid taxes for 20 years, then I never want to hear another conservative gripe about someone gaming the welfare system to buy milk and bread and maybe a premium cable channel. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/122 "2016-10-04T01:00:11Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Don’t you ever have a hankering to pay $80 for a USDA Choice-grade steak raised by Dalit in India? Holy cow! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/123 "2016-10-04T01:02:48Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Point the first: He’s partially running on his acumen as a businessman, and he lost a sum amounting to nearly (in GD, being on my last warning, I’d best phrase it as) A BILLION MOTHER HUMPING DOLLARS. Obligatory cite, this was [2% of all US business losses that year.](http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/305415/trumps-so-bad-at-business-1995-loss-was-two-percent-of-us/) On a CASINO. How does anybody lose money on a casino, much less 2% of all business losses in a very lucrative year for business in the US? Well, the casino on the river in New Orleans is losing money, in my understanding. But not that much. If Trump is more incompetent than the government of Louisiana, we need to keep him far away from Washington. Maybe Moscow, and not Idaho. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/124 "2016-10-04T01:06:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Cite that Hillary broke the law? > **[Fact Check: Hillary Clinton, Those Emails And The Law](https://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/02/396823014/fact-check-hillary-clinton-those-emails-and-the-law)** > > A top Republican senator charged that Hillary Clinton "probably" broke the law with her use of private emails as secretary of state. But it's not likely to be so clear. But not to worry, DC is the ultimate sanctuary city. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/125 "2016-10-04T01:09:59Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Point the first: He’s partially running on his acumen as a businessman, and he lost a sum amounting to nearly (in GD, being on my last warning, I’d best phrase it as) A BILLION MOTHER HUMPING DOLLARS. Obligatory cite, this was [2% of all US business losses that year.](http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/305415/trumps-so-bad-at-business-1995-loss-was-two-percent-of-us/) On a CASINO. How does anybody lose money on a casino, much less 2% of all business losses in a very lucrative year for business in the US? > > Point the second: Someone will have already mentioned this downthread, but if we’re all A-OK with Trump legally gaming the system to avoid taxes for 20 years, then I never want to hear another conservative gripe about someone gaming the welfare system to buy milk and bread and maybe a premium cable channel. Difference is Trump is building casinos for the benefit of society. Welfare people just produce more kids that are going to either be on welfare themselves or jail. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/126 "2016-10-04T01:10:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > [Fact Check: Hillary Clinton, Those Emails And The Law : It's All Politics : NPR](http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/02/396823014/fact-check-hillary-clinton-those-emails-and-the-law) > > But not to worry, DC is the ultimate sanctuary city. > [@](#): > > The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee — not just a rank-and-file House member — alleged Tuesday that Hillary Clinton **likely** broke the law with her use of private emails as secretary of state. > > “\*\*I think \*\*they all fall into one great big mistake she made,” Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa told Newsmax before adding: “And it \*\*could be \*\*a violation of law, **probably is** a violation of law. **Some people are suggesting she could even be prosecuted** , and it’s as simple as this — she was using a private email address instead of a government one, and it **probably** violates the Freedom of Information Act, it **probably** violates national security legislation.” So many weasel words, so little time. And Grassley isn’t even a lawyer. And that article is from April, 2015. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/127 "2016-10-04T01:31:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Difference is Trump is building casinos for the benefit of society. Man, you seemed so OK for a minute. Now we’re gonna have to spar. Point the first: There is no cite you can provide that even incidentally suggests Trump ever built anything for the benefit of anything except Trump. In fact, most evidence suggests that Trump’s done a fairly shitty job of building things for the benefit of Trump. Losing a billion bucks and liquidating a business is not exactly a redounding testament to creating jobs or values. Point the second: If you’re saying that people have the right to entertain themselves in economically destructive ways, as a soft libertarian I can’t argue against that. However, it’s exhaustively documented that casinos destroy wealth and damage society. Engines of prosperity, they ain’t, except for the rent-seekers privileged to run the enterprise. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/128 "2016-10-04T01:36:44Z")
For the record, a “paper loss” is still a loss. I’m not sure how a man’s net worth decreasing by $900 million can be rendered meaningless merely because he didn’t physically hand over a two-story stack of money bags. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/129 "2016-10-04T01:56:00Z")
When he loses $915 million in a year and still manages to acquire a Boeing 727 at the same time for his own personal use, and has it registered in Bermuda by the way, despite reporting only $10 million in total personal income, indicates to me that the meaning of losing $915 million is substantially less than your average American losing any amount of money at all. ---
**Author:** ![Hey\_Hey\_Paula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hey\_Hey\_Paula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hey_Hey_Paula)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/130 "2016-10-04T02:01:21Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Difference is Trump is building casinos for the benefit of society. Welfare people just produce more kids that are going to either be on welfare themselves or jail. “…building casinos for the benefit of society”? Seriously? How do casinos benefit society? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/131 "2016-10-04T03:13:51Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I rarely see liberal politicians argue that being a good businessman isn’t good experience for running a government. I guess they’re afraid they would sound like dirty commies, or maybe they believe the narrative themselves. Instead, they try to attack their opponent’s business credentials. I wonder what happens when a genius capitalist does come along to save us. I’m not sure what your point is. Ross Perot and Steve Forbes made runs for the presidency on the basis of their business acumen. Had either of them had a year of quote colossal failure in which they reported losses of nearly $1 billion, it’d be fair game. If a state governor had presided over his or her state’s economic collapse, that’d also be fair game, regardless of party affiliation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/132 "2016-10-04T03:32:39Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > [Fact Check: Hillary Clinton, Those Emails And The Law : It's All Politics : NPR](http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/04/02/396823014/fact-check-hillary-clinton-those-emails-and-the-law) > > But not to worry, DC is the ultimate sanctuary city. That article says that someone with something to gain thinks she probably broke the law. If that’s good enough for you, then okay, but it’s not close to good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/133 "2016-10-04T04:47:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Difference is Trump is building casinos for the benefit of society. Is this a joke? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/134 "2016-10-04T05:22:56Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > For the record, a “paper loss” is still a loss. > > I’m not sure how a man’s net worth decreasing by $900 million can be rendered meaningless merely because he didn’t physically hand over a two-story stack of money bags. From [this article](http://qz.com/798940/donald-trumps-leaked-1995-tax-return-raises-these-big-unanswered-questions/): > [@](#): > > One question is whether Trump’s losses were real, or a product of “debt parking.” Trump financed his businesses almost entirely with other people’s money, so typically any paper losses would belong to his creditors, not him. Trump didn’t actually lose all those millions himself, because he never had them. Yet he still managed to claim the losses as his own. That’s one of the shady-looking things with Trump’s returns - Trump taking losses that weren’t really his to take and using them to offset his actual profit. It’s not imaginary money versus cash-in-your-hand money. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/135 "2016-10-04T05:26:45Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Is this a joke? I actually read it without looking at the username (which I do often), thought it was parody, and chuckled a bit. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/136 "2016-10-04T05:50:12Z")
I mentioned in another thread, maybe it’s this thread I’m not sure it’s late, that if everyone assumes that Clinton has won the election the next 5 weeks or so are going to be sort of boring. So it is a bit of playing Trumpil’s advocate with that statement about the casinos. It was meant be farcical. You guys have to realize that this election is borderline absurd at this point. Normally, I don’t argue a contrary position just to argue a contrary position in that manner but I did think it was humorous because it is bit over the top yet actually sounds like an argument that someone might make. I do have a question for the mods though. Is it permissible for the sake of exploring an argument and to further a discussion to advocate a contrary point of view? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/137 "2016-10-04T05:54:30Z")
Taking the loss off his taxable income is exactly what he was supposed to do once he took that loss. And it’s not a secret that he has gone bankrupt more than once. But if he’s still paying relatively low taxes, more than eighteen years later it does show that he probably really never got to be even richer and even bigger. He’s more hat than cattle now. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/138 "2016-10-04T06:40:41Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It was meant be farcical. You guys have to realize that this election is borderline absurd at this point. Oh, this election passed that border months ago and is now prepping for the Absurdistan citizenship test. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/139 "2016-10-04T12:34:27Z")
Isn’t the try, try, and try again ethos the American Way? As I understand it, there’s little stigma in America to going bankrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2016, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563/140 "2016-10-04T12:45:46Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Normally, I don’t argue a contrary position just to argue a contrary position in that manner but I did think it was humorous because it is bit over the top yet actually sounds like an argument that someone might make. I do have a question for the mods though. Is it permissible for the sake of exploring an argument and to further a discussion to advocate a contrary point of view? You want to argue a position you don’t really believe in just to keep the pot boiling? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-trump-may-have-avoided-paying-taxes-by-carrying-over-a-huge-loss-so-what/767563.md?page=8)