# So..um...what if the Large Hadron Collider does create a tiny black hole **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 30, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231 "2009-08-30T04:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/21 "2009-08-30T22:19:21Z")
> [@](#): > > So Black hole msmith537 doesn’t have enough gravitational force to create any kind of event horizion? If it doesn’t have an event horizon, it’s not a black hole. However, the event horizon will be extremely tiny-- It scales linearly with the mass. The question about a black hole in the core of the Earth that’s large enough to remain stable is extremely interesting, but very difficult to answer, since although the black hole itself is simple, the core of the Earth is very messy indeed. But even in vacuum, a black hole of human mass would last roughly a second, which might be enough time to swallow a human mass of core. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/22 "2009-08-30T22:21:32Z")
Oh, and no matter what happens, we can already be completely, 100% confident that it won’t destroy the planet, since naturally-occurring cosmic rays have been observed with hundreds of times as much energy as anything the LHC can do. If particles of such an energy were going to destroy the Earth, they would have already done it. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/23 "2009-08-30T23:37:37Z")
\ Hey! I get to move a thread from IMHO to GQ, rather then the other way around! This is a better General Question. Moved. \ ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/24 "2009-08-31T00:04:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But even in vacuum, a black hole of human mass would last roughly a second, which might be enough time to swallow a human mass of core. Let me see if I’ve got this straight. If you compress my fat ass down to a black hole, then I will go POOF one second later in a burst of 226 pounds (as of this morning) of Hawking radiation? This sounds like a nifty way to conveniently transport a lot of potential energy in a handy, compact form. Any way this could be used for rocket propulsion or anything else useful? Maybe _we want_ to figure out a way to make some black holes? ---
**Author:** ![Washoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecae2f/32.png) [@Washoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Washoe)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/25 "2009-08-31T00:14:18Z")
Shoulda gone to [wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawking_radiation) first: > [@](#): > > Hawking’s analysis became the first convincing insight into a possible theory of quantum gravity. However, the existence of Hawking radiation has never been observed. In June 2008, NASA launched the GLAST satellite, which will search for the terminal gamma-ray flashes expected from evaporating primordial black holes. In speculative large extra dimension theories, CERN’s Large Hadron Collider **may be able to create micro black holes and observe their evaporation**. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/26 "2009-08-31T00:15:54Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Let me see if I’ve got this straight. If you compress my fat ass down to a black hole, then I will go POOF one second later in a burst of 226 pounds (as of this morning) of Hawking radiation? This sounds like a nifty way to conveniently transport a lot of potential energy in a handy, compact form. Any way this could be used for rocket propulsion or anything else useful? Maybe _we want_ to figure out a way to make some black holes? _ **IF** _ we could make a hole big enough that we could keep it stable then yes there would be all sorts of uses. But that’s well beyond our present ability, and quite possibly always will be. You’d need a way to make the hole, then shove a huge amount of mass-energy down something the size of an elementary particle faster than it is radiating energy back out. Or come up with some clever way around the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/27 "2009-08-31T00:32:14Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Let me see if I’ve got this straight. If you compress my fat ass down to a black hole, then I will go POOF one second later in a burst of 226 pounds (as of this morning) of Hawking radiation? This sounds like a nifty way to conveniently transport a lot of potential energy in a handy, compact form. Any way this could be used for rocket propulsion or anything else useful? Maybe _we want_ to figure out a way to make some black holes? Unfortunately this would be very expensive, and the constructs would last for barely enough time to allow a wide variety of interest groups from OPEC to PETA to slap an injunction on you. You’re better off trying to figure out how to make muon-catalyzed fusion viable. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/28 "2009-08-31T00:36:29Z")
> [@parthenokinesis](#): > > Say I put msmith537 on one end of the super collider and Mr. Miskatonic at the other end and run them into each other a near light speed… Now who the hell is gonna clean that up? Sure as hell ain’t gonna be me. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/29 "2009-08-31T01:15:53Z")
> [@parthenokinesis](#): > > Say I put msmith537 on one end of the super collider and Mr. Miskatonic at the other end and run them into each other a near light speed, Sounds like my typical Tuesday. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/30 "2009-08-31T02:08:54Z")
> [@parthenokinesis](#): > > So Black hole msmith537 doesn’t have enough gravitational force to create any kind of event horizion? Will the stray hydrogen atom that comes in direct contact just harmlessly bounce off, or does the stable, but miniature black hole have the ability to feed itself? What if it were a little bigger? Say I put msmith537 on one end of the super collider and Mr. Miskatonic at the other end and run them into each other a near light speed, is the then created Black hole Mr Smithatonic537 stable and massive enough to start sucking in some air molecules? What if you were both wearing heavy woolen coats? I would if you compress me within my [Schwarzschild radius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius) (About 6x10^-25 m). That is, if you think you have the Schwarz for it. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/31 "2009-08-31T03:38:49Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I would if you compress me within my [Schwarzschild radius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius) (About 6x10^-25 m). That is, if you think you have the Schwarz for it. May the Schwarz be with you! From everything I’ve read, worrying about the LHC is just about as ignorant as worrying about 2012. As **Chronos** said, the Earth has already seen much more exciting natural phenomena. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/32 "2009-08-31T03:58:12Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Let me see if I’ve got this straight. If you compress my fat ass down to a black hole, then I will go POOF one second later in a burst of 226 pounds (as of this morning) of Hawking radiation? This sounds like a nifty way to conveniently transport a lot of potential energy in a handy, compact form. Any way this could be used for rocket propulsion or anything else useful? Maybe _we want_ to figure out a way to make some black holes? Well, it would be. If you find carrying around 226 lbs plus the mass of whatever you would need to contain the black hole so it doesn’t drop though the floor. For that matter, how would we know if there wasn’t already a small black hole at the center of the Earth’s core? How long would it be until there was a noticeable effect on the surface? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/33 "2009-08-31T04:00:26Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I would if you compress me within my [Schwarzschild radius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius) Which is not nearly as scary as your Schwanstücker radius. Voof! ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/34 "2009-08-31T04:15:03Z")
> [@Washoe](#): > > Let me see if I’ve got this straight. If you compress my fat ass down to a black hole, then I will go POOF one second later in a burst of 226 pounds (as of this morning) of Hawking radiation? This sounds like a nifty way to conveniently transport a lot of potential energy in a handy, compact form. Any way this could be used for rocket propulsion or anything else useful? Maybe _we want_ to figure out a way to make some black holes? Wait, how does this even work? I can extract work from your fat ass’s gravitational collapse. (Or, say, an ass large enough to collapse on its own.) And then you burst into light that I can extract more energy out of? Is this a free lunch? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/35 "2009-08-31T04:15:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Well, it would be. If you find carrying around 226 lbs plus the mass of whatever you would need to contain the black hole so it doesn’t drop though the floor. > > For that matter, how would we know if there wasn’t already a small black hole at the center of the Earth’s core? How long would it be until there was a noticeable effect on the surface? A long time IMO. A tiny black hole doesnt “suck” anything into it so to speak. It is on the size of an atom. Its only going to “eat” things that run into it. Thats a pretty small target to hit. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/36 "2009-08-31T04:16:53Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > For that matter, how would we know if there wasn’t already a small black hole at the center of the Earth’s core? How long would it be until there was a noticeable effect on the surface? Weight of the earth = 1.31695337 × 10^25 pounds. Chronos said that a 226 pound black hole would last a second and devour 226 pounds. Therefore, assuming linearity, that black hole would take 5.8272273 × 10^22 seconds or 1.84657634 × 10^15 years. Too long to worry about. Make the black hole a million times larger. That brings it down to 1.84657634 × 10^9 years. Still too big. But even 1% of the earth’s mass would be an issue. That’s 1.84657634 × 10^7 years. Nope. Can’t worry yet. There is no such thing as a small black hole that would make any difference in under geologic time. Stop asking this question. Do a search for the 1.84657634 × 10^15 previous threads. Read them. You’ll have plenty of time while your silly black hole does nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/37 "2009-08-31T04:17:42Z")
One thing I wanted to point out is that the Earth can’t just collapse into a [sufficiently large] black hole at its center. It’s got a bunch of rotational momentum, after all. It will have to radiate all of that off like a quazar before it can collapse. It will get very hot as that happens. As a side-note, I wonder if the crust can stay in place during much of this. ---
**Author:** ![qazwart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/5fc32e/32.png) [@qazwart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qazwart)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/38 "2009-08-31T04:18:04Z")
Very simply, the LHC cannot do anything as big and bad that nature already hasn’t done a billion times already. Gamma rays bombard our own atmosphere with more energy than whatever the LHC can cook up. These very microscopic black holes have been created over and over again in the Earth’s upper atmosphere. If we haven’t been sucked into a microscopic black hole yet, it isn’t because the universe hasn’t been trying. So, if we have more tremendous energy collisions going on now on this very planet than whatever the LHC can produce, why bother with the LHC? Simple: Because the LHC will produce these collisions in a single spot which is surrounded by big giant sensors. The gamma radiation, although much more energetic, can hit our atmosphere at anywhere and at anytime it’s hard knowing exactly where to look before it happens. If I didn’t live in the U.S., I’d create a webpage allowing people to bet that we’d be sucked into a black hole as a result of the LHC. I’m willing to give these people 100:1 odds (and maybe 200:1 that we’ll be destroyed by a strangelet). Not only am I completely confident that the LHC won’t destroy us. I also figure even if I’m wrong, I still won’t have to pay a cent. ---
**Author:** ![Alex\_Dubinsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dbc845/32.png) [@Alex\_Dubinsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alex_Dubinsky)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/39 "2009-08-31T04:19:24Z")
Btw, can we give an award to Exapno for the most brilliant physics analysis ever? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231/40 "2009-08-31T04:21:33Z")
> [@Alex\_Dubinsky](#): > > Btw, can we give an award to Exapno for the most brilliant physics analysis ever? Sure ! But someone better give him a little talk about his significant digit fetish 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-um-what-if-the-large-hadron-collider-does-create-a-tiny-black-hole/508231.md?page=3)