So The_Llama and World Eater, do you think Frontline is making shit up, or what?
milroyj, do you think Reuters, Forbes, Fortune and the World Bank are making shit up, or what?
Jesus H. Fucking Christ on a Cracker!
Wal-Mart lies, misrepresents its compensation, and forces people to work without pay. They use the resources available to them in the court-system.
It’s the worker’s fault?
You’re a piece of work duffer, a real mother-fuckin’ piece of work. I truly believed that almost no one could be this stupid in defending an argument, but I appear to have been wrong.
Tell me, where do your sympathies lie in my hypothetical Boeing example?
I don’t have a cite but wouldn’t that wages that low allow a worker to qualify for all kinds of public benefits?
And isn’t having to shell out up a thousand dollars a year in medical expenses rather difficult with a mere 20K a year before taxes?
Also if you at the original cite you will see it states that average is about $11 an hour in larger metropolitan areas. That won’t you very far in San Francisco or Chicago.
Ok, “making up shit” was harsh. I seriously want to know, though, if, and why, you guys suddenly distrust a mainstream, albeit somewhat lefty (no offense), source such as PBS/Frontline?
I mean, if the thread were about (the lack of) WMD in Iraq, a PBS cite would be absolute proof to you, but now that the question is about wages at Wal-Mart, PBS is given short shrift in favor of the Democratic Socialists of America?
I’m sure this will come as no surprise, but I don’t get it.
threemae , I always seem to be on the other side of your argument even though I agree with you. Sorry about that. What I think his point was, was that forcing overtime is a 1 or 2 store problem, and blame can’t be assigned to wal-mart as an entity. He felt that 6 separate cites of forced overtime would be enough for him to relent. However, I think that’s the wrong way to attack it. In a lot of the articles I’ve been reading from peoples posts, it seems that there’s overwhelming pressure from the home office to get the job done, and at a certain (ultra low) cost.
I think the better way to look at it is, tell me why there would be a class action law suit (that was won) against an entity, if that entity couldn’t pawn the blame off on one or two “rouge stores” as they called them.
It’s still not a living wage in many places.
Is it okay with you if we have to subsidize Wal Mart’s profits with the EITC, housing help, medicaid and food stamps for Wal Mart employees in order to enable them survive?
Or does hard work only supposed to pay off for rich folks?
It’s not distrust, it’s the realization that there are differnt sets of statistics out there. There’s the one that includes the managers salaries in the average, and the one that only includes the lowly worker bees. Frontline may have been given the fluffed up number. I, of course, can’t know for sure, but for all you know, frontline is getting its info directly from the CEO of Wal-Mart. Besides, no one said those numbers were gospel, just interesting that there are different sets of numbers out there, and interesting that those sets of numbers BOTH come from respectable sources. I only posted my response to you because you yelled to everyone who didn’t want to read the article THOSE NUMBERS ARE FROM A DISREPUTABLE SOURCE when, in fact, they weren’t.
And duffer, I put my money (what little I have) where my mouth is: I refuse to go to WalMart, and will choose to pay more from a local place. If that means I can’t afford erverything I would like to buy, that’s fine. It’s easier on my conscience to go without than knowing that I’m buying goods from a company that buys from sweatshops, underpays its workers, and all sorts of other damage, ad nauseum.
Yes, that’s life, I suppose, there are different sets of numbers that mean different things. But reasonable people could agree that numbers from PBS (a news cite)are more meaningful than numbers from the DSA (a political cite).
Objective vs. Opinion?
I’ll go with objective, even if it is PBS 
, everytime. Opinions cooked up on the internet, not so much. YMMV.
It’s late, good night all.
No, I agree that so many Wal-Mart stores end up with the type of situations and claims that are occurring because of pressure from the top. That’s the reason I’m saying that it’s okay to hate Wal-Mart as a whole. I simply feel that we might be fighting a losing battle. Although duffer has basically conceded the point of illegal labor practices, he’s just shifted to saying that its the workers fault for being suckered in by Wal-Mart in the first place. :rolleyes: Frankly, when you debate against an ideologue like duffer, there’s just no winning. He came up with a stupid OP, and he’ll defend it to the death, beyond any reason or argument.
Wait. You began this all by asking us all to have compassion for a teacher to buy their kid a vanity bed.
And you have no compassion for someone in a high-unemployment job market forced to choose between an abusive job or no job at all?
You are a despicable human being. You make Jesus weep.
You’re quoting the Bible to make your case I’m worthless? Talk about right-wing fundies. You win.
Yeah, are they the things that smell bad and everyone has to deal with one? If so, I’ll guess either an asshole or a Reeder.
I guess I’ll join the crowd and shop at Target instead. They’re only a few blocks apart. Maybe now I’ll sleep better knowing I’m saving the Chinese kids from a life of torment. Hey, we each hve to do our part, right?
And how the hell is shopping at Wal-Mart dependant on what party you vote for? I know of more than a few left-wingers that shop there as well.
THis is the problem with you, it always comes back to “lefties, righties”, and suddenly when there’s a wide berth in figures, it becomes “distrust”.
On the one hand, we have figures from something you call a “lefty” source, seemingly proving your position. On the other hand, we have at least 4 other sources from somewhat unbiased organizations proving ours, and you bring politics into it. THis isn’t about politics, fuckface. This is about disparity in sources-which happens all the time.
When faced with a single source claiming X, and 4 sources claiming Y, I tend to lean towards the numbers put together from 4 separate news sources than the numbers that came out of a single news program.
You and Duffer really need reality checks.
Sam
It would have taken me 3 paragraphs to write that exact sentiment.
-not Sam
Wal-Mart represents the best and the worst of the American capitalist system. They have the money and purchasing power to squeeze every last cent from their suppliers, and they do it, which saves us the comsumer a nickel or dime, which over time, at least to us wage slaves, counts. Yet in doing so, they keep their suppliers belts tight, and in some cases, force more American wage slaves out of work (it wouldn’t suprise me to see a former union MasterLock employee working at a non-union Milwaukee Wal-Mart) but globally, they add to the workforce in incredible numbers, a fact that they are not likely to share with their customer base in middle America. It’s a true catch-22, one that has a very simple answer.
Unionize. It’s DEFINATELY going to be a messy, uphill battle, but if the employees are smart, and silent at the same time, they’ll be able to pull it off, but it will have to be every American store, at the same time, period. But then, sadly, that gallon of pickles will cost you $3.57, instead of $2.98.
And that’s what you SHOULD do, if you’ve got a problem with the way a company does business. Walk away and refuse to spend your money there. But remember if you choose Levi’s from somewhere else, you’re buying the same sweatshop clothing from a dfferent retailer, which, while easing your conscience, does nothing for the sweatshop reality.
You expect compassion? For someone who HAS a job? No. They get to eat, buy a tv, maybe buy an old car to get them from place to place, and some birthday presents for their kids. I personally feel compassion for the people who Wal-Mart has forced OUT of a job, because the companies they worked for failed to keep the doors open. That example is what’s wrong with capitalism.
The bottom line is that Wal-Mart has done more good than harm. Anything the size of Wal-Mart has the potential to do SERIOUS damage to the economy, and the people who make it up. They haven’t, and they probably won’t. On the whole, they seem to be an ethical company (no real scandals like MCI, Enron or Global Crossings) with a desire to serve the community in the best possible way. Will people, businesses and even families crumble under the weight of Wal-Mart? Yes.
Can that be changed? Probably not. Could Wal-Mart be a better employer? Yes.
Will they be? Probably not. Could Wal-Mart be a better corporate citizen? Yes.
Will they be? Probably not. Unless they’re forced to be, and as long as they’re undercutting everyone in the business, I can’t see that coming.
As an aside, I wonder. How many people in this thread have shopped at a Wal-Mart? How many shop there all the time? Be honest.
I do, and will, when ever I need something that they have, there, I will go.
I have, about 3 or 4 times. I won’t ever go back, though. To be honest, it’s not the economic ramifications, it’s the feeling I get when I’m there. I feel out of place and kind of skeeved, generally. I think every time I went to wal-mart was because they were open late when I needed stuff. Who else has an ethernet cable at 11:00 PM? Pricing had nothing to do with it, and those were the days of little extra money to spend.
Do you really believe they’re doing more good than harm? I mean, I know they represent like 4% of our GDP (Which is HUGE) and they can be credited in a major way with keeping inflation down, but what about the over-all erosion of the expectations of employees at a given job? I’m not talking about a job that makes it’s employees get off the internet and do some work, but the places like wal-mart and others forced to compete with them that offer super low wages, little compensation, a hostile work environment (if the firing to hire new, cheaper workforces is true), etc? Don’t you think that down the road, or even right now, this will outweigh any fiscal good they’re doing for pickel lovers?
Nope. Quoting the Bible in case you have a shred of human compassion or conscience. I guess we all lose. (And with regard to your pigeonholing people as left and right… how come I’m a ‘rightie’ in that I quote the Bible? Shouldn’t I be a ‘leftie’ in that I’m supporting worker rights? Can you even fathom that Biblical piety can lead one to socially leftist politics? Or is there no such creature in your Black and White world?)
BTW, you still haven’t addressed the inconsistency: Your take is that if Wal-Mart workers are treated lousy and aren’t getting paid enough, they should quit. Well, then… shouldn’t teachers who aren’t paid enough to buy vanity beds for their kids just quit and get better paying jobs?
Yeah. Let them eat cake. I’m glad jobs are so easy to find where you live, and you can gleefully walk away from yours whenever you get fed up with it, secure in the knowledge there are plenty of opportunities right down the block. I’ve applied for about 80 jobs in the last 6 months, and didn’t get a single offer. You’re right, though - nobody’s trapped. We all have free will, and can exercise it whenever we choose, even if it means not being able to support a family or becoming homeless.
Believe it or not, some people do have families to support, and if they lose a job they will take anything to put food on the table, in the hopes of finding a better job down the line. Just because somebody doesn’t quit when they’re treated poorly - especially when it’s encouraged by management - doesn’t mean they’re stupid fools for staying there. A lot of times it means that’s their only option at the moment.
But obviously, none of these situations has ever applied to you, which means it doesn’t matter, I guess.