# So was Gollum/Smeagol once a Hobbit. Spoilers! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 3, 2003, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409 "2003-01-03T13:32:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/21 "2003-01-03T17:45:35Z")
Goodness, inconsistent stories from Tolkien? Inconceivable! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/22 "2003-01-03T18:02:21Z")
mg, Since every word of Tolkien is inspired, it’s obviously our corrupt natures and limited understanding that prevent us from fully understanding the texts. The seeming contradictions test our wisdom and faith and encourage us to grow stronger in heart and mind. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/23 "2003-01-03T18:31:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TWDuke \* > BTW, could it be that Hobbits represent the only known instance of evolution in Middle Earth? Most of the peoples and creatures seem to be what they were at the creation, if somewhat diminished. Hobbits, however, seem to have branched off the race of men and developed distinctive characteristics. Well, the Numenoreans diminished significantly, the Orcs were corrupted from Elves, and Saruman seemed to be engaged in an explicit program of genetic modification (i.e., breeding Orcs and Men). ---
**Author:** ![Coda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Coda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coda)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/24 "2003-01-03T19:02:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Since every word of Tolkien is inspired, it’s obviously our corrupt natures and limited understanding that prevent us from fully understanding the texts. The seeming contradictions test our wisdom and faith and encourage us to grow stronger in heart and mind. I’ll agree Tolkien was an inspired writer. As a matter of fact it was often said that no one could edit his work, as it would be considered rude. Let us not forget Tolkien was a mathmatical writer, he studied lingustics and was the Rawlingson Professor of Anglo-Saxon. So yes he knew his writing. I dare to venture this is not a lone inconsistancy, but clearly it is inconsistant. Gollum may not have been a Took or a Baggins as it were. But he certainly could have been akin to say an Englishmans Norse cousin. ---
**Author:** ![monica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a183cd/32.png) [@monica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monica)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/25 "2003-01-03T22:01:46Z")
One thing that I noticed is that in the beginning of the movie when Smeagal is shown finding the ring, you can just see a hand reaching into the water, and it looks distinctly Gollum-like, not hobbit-like. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/26 "2003-01-03T22:11:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TWDuke \* > \*\*Since every word of Tolkien is inspired, it’s obviously our corrupt natures and limited understanding that prevent us from fully understanding the texts. The seeming contradictions test our wisdom and faith and encourage us to grow stronger in heart and mind. \*\* Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/27 "2003-01-03T23:07:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by monica \* > \*\*One thing that I noticed is that in the beginning of the movie when Smeagal is shown finding the ring, you can just see a hand reaching into the water, and it looks distinctly Gollum-like, not hobbit-like. \*\* No it’s not. The next frame shows a healthy pink hand holding ita and purring. smeagol, as a hobbit, before being warped by centuries with the ring alone in the dark. ---
**Author:** ![Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/28 "2003-01-03T23:25:14Z")
Am I the only one who feels very very sorry for the men who had to be cross-bred to create the Uruk-Hai? ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/29 "2003-01-03T23:37:59Z")
That’s not Smeagol’s hand picking the ring out of the sand. It’s soon-to-be-offed Deagol’s. But the next hand shown holding the Ring must surely be Smeagol’s, as we can hear him purring over it. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/30 "2003-01-03T23:38:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Speaker for the Dead \* > \*\*Am I the only one who feels very very sorry for the men who had to be cross-bred to create the Uruk-Hai? \*\* I thought they had changed that in the film to crossbreeding “orcs” with “goblins”. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/31 "2003-01-03T23:40:20Z")
**Speaker for the Dead** asked: > [@](#): > > Am I the only one who feels very very sorry for the men who had to be cross-bred to create the Uruk-Hai? I wonder if they used human men X women orcs or human women X male orcs? Ewww either way. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/32 "2003-01-03T23:41:15Z")
The “Tale of Years” in the Appendix has two flaws. One, it is not comprehensive, because it is a condensation of information. Thus, the phrase “DĂ©agol the Stoor” is not incompatible with the more complete (or would Tolkein say _compleat_?) explanation from Gandalf that DĂ©agol was “akin to the fathers of the fathers of the Stoors.” It isn’t quite fully explained whether the people of which DĂ©agol and SmĂ©agol are members are those left behind when the Stoors migrated, or whether they are Stoors who fled the Angle and returned to the Wilderland (cf. the entry for 1356 in the Third Age in the Tale of Years). Either way, they are halflings; whether they are “hobbits” depends on whether Hobbits use that word to include all halflings, or only those who migrated to Eriador early in the Third Age. Further information is found in Appendix F; in a footnote regarding Hobbit speech Tolkein notes that, while Stoors in the Angle had adopted the “Common Speech”, the names SmĂ©agol and DĂ©agol appear to have been related to mannish speech used near the Gladden fields. One can infer from this that SmĂ©agol and DĂ©agol are related to halflings who remained behind when the migration of “hobbits” over the mountains to Eriador occurred. Thus, Gandalf is no doubt talking to Frodo from Frodo’s perspective as a “hobbit” living in the Shire, who thinks of the Stoors not as a breed of halfling living near water, but as a people who lived in the Shire different from Fallohides and Naugahydes (oops, sorry for the obligatory BotR reference), that is, Harfoots in the same way Celts and Slavs are different. Since the word “hobbit” (correctly _kuduk_) is a word made by hobbits, and apparently corrupted from holbytla (correctly _kĂ»d-dĂ»kan_), a word found in the speech of the Rohirrim, the correct answer to the OP would appear to be: _Trahald_ and _Nahald_ (SmĂ©agol and DĂ©agol untranslated) were possibly _kĂ»d-dĂ»kan_ (holbytla), but not necessarily _kuduk_ (hobbits). They were definitely _banakil_ (halflings). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/33 "2003-01-03T23:43:24Z")
Actually, I prefer to think that Saruman was engaged in genetic engineering, and didn’t need actual breeding programs to modify the genetic traits of the orcs
 ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/34 "2003-01-03T23:45:26Z")
They said “goblin-men,” which could mean male goblins (which would of course be orcs) or it could mean half-orcs. The breeding of orcs and humans was definitely one of the darkest things in the book and a strong indication of just how far Saruman had fallen. Maybe it was just too icky for a movie that has to appeal to preteens and their parents. Although people complained about the birth of the urak-hai in the movies, imagine how disturbing it would have been to see one be delivered by a female orc or, even worse, a human woman. ---
**Author:** ![Badtz\_Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Badtz\_Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Badtz_Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/35 "2003-01-03T23:46:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pugluvr \* > \*\ ***Speaker for the Dead** asked: > > I wonder if they used human men X women orcs or human women X male orcs? > > Ewww either way. \*\* Unless he had Viagra or a damn good fluffer I bet it was the second choice. ---
**Author:** ![rocking\_chair](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocking_chair/32/2918_2.png) [@rocking\_chair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rocking_chair)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/36 "2003-01-04T01:13:38Z")
[http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/source/Ringer\_Spy\_Kristoffer](http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/source/Ringer_Spy_Kristoffer) they look hobbitish, a bit bigger perhaps. then
 things take a nasty turn
 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/37 "2003-01-04T02:56:21Z")
Why the F\*\*\* does PJ think hobbits have pointy ears!!! ---
**Author:** ![Silentgoldfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@Silentgoldfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silentgoldfish)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/38 "2003-01-04T03:04:39Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > **Why the F** _ does PJ think hobbits have pointy ears!!! \*\* To be fair he’s given everyone but humans and dwarves pointy ears
 ---
**Author:** ![c\_carol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e79b87/32.png) [@c\_carol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/c_carol)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/39 "2003-01-04T03:10:23Z")
> [@](#): > > _by JRR himself, from The Letters (emphasis mine)_ > I picture a fairly human figure, not a kind of ‘fairy’ rabbit as some of my British reviewers seem to fancy: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; **ears only slightly pointed and ‘elvish’;** hair short and curling (brown). The feet from the ankles down, covered with brown hairy fur
 What do I win? ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409/40 "2003-01-04T03:34:42Z")
Have you noticed that we never see any female orcs? Not one. I’m inclined to think that they’re all kept locked away in Isengard and Barad-Dur, to be used for breeding more orcs. This could could explain why there are so many orcs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-was-gollum-smeagol-once-a-hobbit-spoilers/146409.md?page=3)