# So we watched Watchmen this weekend and we hated it (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020 "2011-11-15T16:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/181 "2011-11-16T16:15:44Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m not misquoting the word; Moore’s not perfect. (At another point, he apparently forgets that NYC is on the East Coast rather than the West Coast.) Huh. Who knew Sarah Palin was a Watchmen fan? > [@MrDibble](#): > > But the point is that Moore _doesn’t_ just make a lesson that ends justify the means like was claimed. Like you said, he leaves it unanswered. But _for me_, the amount of focus on the civilian characters definitely points to one message - in a way, Ozy is as inhuman as Manhattan, to be willing to sacrifice real people the way he does. That’s one of the strengths of the book - the reader is left to choose between two unpalatable options: either we want Ozy’s viewpoint to win, leaving him unpunished for killing millions but (at least for the time being) averting global nuclear war (the end justifying the means), or we want Rorschach’s viewpoint to win and the guilty to be punished even at the expense of undoing the good that has been done and endangering humanity (with no moral compromise). ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/182 "2011-11-16T16:33:55Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > I had always hoped it would be an HBO miniseries, across 12 eps like the comic book, and directed by Pixar/Brad Bird (Iron Giant, The Incredibles, Ratatouille) in some sort of stylized CG animation. > > That would be all kinds of awesome. Here’s a [promo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w&ob=av3e). ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/183 "2011-11-16T16:49:04Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do they?Aren’t we? The comic leaves open the possibility that he wins in the end. > > No, I get what you’re saying - “hero” is the wrong word here - POV-character is closer. But the point is that Moore _doesn’t_ just make a lesson that ends justify the means like was claimed. Like you said, he leaves it unanswered. But _for me_, the amount of focus on the civilian characters definitely points to one message - in a way, Ozy is as inhuman as Manhattan, to be willing to sacrifice real people the way he does. I’m with you there. I think, though, that the fact that the POV-character is broken and insane, and yet he’s the one with whom we empathize most of the time, is a telling indicator that all of the ‘answers’ to the problem in the story are flawed. I do agree that the Ozy/Manhattan parallel is strong, I just think the jury is out on whether that inhumanity is bad/wrong in all circumstances. After all, wasn’t it humanity that got itself to the brink of nuclear destruction in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/184 "2011-11-16T16:54:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Do you have some indication that Moore would have any problem _just_ with someone taking his characters and doing other things with them? > > That’s not his issue. His issue is his own name being associated with the derived works when he had no creative input. > (And repeatedly being fucked over by the comics companies, but that’s a different issue) The aforementioned “LXG” had little to do with the books and used characters that Moore did not create (and indeed, in book form at least, some were still not public domain), yet I don’t remember him being all sweetness and light about that. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/185 "2011-11-16T16:55:01Z")
And let’s not forget the scene with Adrian in the book at least using the societal trends involving war panic etc to add to his personal fortune. Even within his own fucked up moral compass he isn’t solely altruistic. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/186 "2011-11-16T17:23:47Z")
> [@villa](#): > > And let’s not forget the scene with Adrian in the book at least using the societal trends involving war panic etc to add to his personal fortune. Even within his own fucked up moral compass he isn’t solely altruistic. I think we’re supposed to give him a pass on that one, though. A big part of his schtick is that he donated his entire inheritance to charity before hitting the streets as a costumed adventurer who relies solely on his body and mind; it’s not until eight years later that the Comedian opens his eyes to the threat of impending nuclear annihilation, at which point Veidt decides, crap, I need to start building a personal fortune – and, in the bit you mention, we learn that he did so by always refusing to invest in munitions. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/187 "2011-11-16T17:25:55Z")
I don’t see Moore expecting us to give a pass to a stock market manipulator. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/188 "2011-11-16T17:28:39Z")
I love _Watchmen_ the comic and I liked the movie only for bringing some of it to film. I agree that it wasn’t successful in many ways, and I think the primary culprit was the time limitation of a standard movie. The comic is multi-layered and is fascinating in various aspects, including its humanity and its ability to tell so many stories at once with an amazing degree of economy. There’s a lot about it that is outdated, primarily its Cold War setting. But, 'Mika, I’d encourage you to read the comic anyway. It’s really a pinnacle of the superhero comic genre, and while you still might hate it, I don’t think it would be an entirely fruitless endeavor. There are a few things to note here. There are essentially three stories in three different formats being employed here. One is the primary plot of costumed superheros. The second is the comic-within-a-comic _Black Freighter_ story. The third is told through _text_ (which might be interesting to you, 'Mika), mostly in the form of newspaper clippings, memoranda, letters, and memoirs. There are several substantial issues being explored in this story, and it might require the perspective of someone who lived through the 1970s and 1980s to really have a handle on the context. One is the growing skepticism about the global hegemony of the United States and the eternal dance of death of the Cold War. There is a lot that people forget about American foreign policy at that time and how painful it all was for people going through it. During my lifetime, the Vietnam War went from being a symbol of the left of the folly and immorality of imposing a single country’s will on the world to a symbol of the right of “betraying our own boys overseas.” The propaganda campaign that made this happen – including things like the Rambo movies – is really amazing. The comic book came out in 1986, I think, during a time in which Reaganism was assuring everyone that, yes, we really are the greatest and no one should ever question our motives or methods ever again. Another topic underlying the story is what has been mentioned here – an examination, a deconstruction of costumed superheroes. What kind of person really puts on a mask and “fights crime”? Does that really have any meaning? Aren’t these people just misfits, weirdos, and psychopaths? Alternatively, aren’t they just sideshows, shysters, and entertainers? And what is a “super-villain”? One of the big problems in the story is that costumed vigilantes had “arch-enemies” who didn’t really live up to the name. What’s the social utility of a costumed vigilante? Why do we admire them? What’s so great about Batman, anyway? > [@Anaamika](#): > > I guess I didn’t so mcuh mean sympathize or empathize. Why should I care even a little about the Comedian’s murder? You’re not supposed to care in the sense that you’re supposed to feel bad or that you really want his killer to come to justice. The Comedian’s death is a mystery because (1) he’s a badass, and (2) he’s protected by the government. Anyone that can throw him off a skyscraper is a real threat. But you are supposed to “care” about the Comedian, because the Comedian is really \*us[/], the U.S., as a country. He’s the embodiment of the United States acting in the world. He kills with impunity, serving a “national interest” that nobody really thinks too deeply about. He is the United States imposing its will in a world in which, because of Doctor Manhattan, the U.S. government can pretty much do whatever it wants to. Doctor Manhattan – yes, he’s unsympathetic and unreachable. But he’s also an exploration of another kind of superhero. If a character like Rorschach is an examination of a mentally damaged costumed vigilante like Batman, then Doctor Manhattan is an examination of a person who really has acquired real super-human abilities. What does that do to a person? What is his perspective? What is his motivation? What is his duty to individual people or to humanity as a whole? Why the hell would Superman spend his life sitting around with a secret identity filing stories for the _Daily Planet_ and flirting with Lois Lane? > [@Anaamika](#): > > Hmm. Anything with the assassination of JFK these days I just totally roll my eyes at. I kind of feel like it’s almost an in-joke in the industry, “HAW HAW he killed JFK” and never take it seriously. I think it’s kind of _meant_ to be an in joke, in this case. The Comedian was behind \*everything \*that happened since the 1950s. This also might be contextual, because in the 1980s there was a resurgence of interest in Who Killed Kennedy conspiracy theories. There are explorations of smaller things as well, some of them … uh … comedic, such as Dan and Laurie’s inability to have sex until they’ve played superhero. Some of them human, like the stories of the background characters … the lesbian couple, Hollis Mason (the first Nite Owl), the kid reading the comic book and the newsstand guy. There’s also the James Bond moment in which Ozymandias gets rid of the people who helped him set up his scheme, which Moore actually makes touching and tragic. There are also the visual details of an alternative-reality 1986 that I find really fun … the airships, the “Gunga Diner,” the weird cigarette holders that now look like something a tweaker or a crack-head would use. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/189 "2011-11-16T17:47:02Z")
Everything else said, I just re-watched the opening credits on Youtube last night and they’re some of the best opening credits I’ve seen on a film. Hell, they probably impacted me more on the notion of “superheroes in the real world and the effects upon each other” than the rest of the movie did. I could skip the rest of the movie and just watch that every now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/190 "2011-11-16T17:51:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Justice, I assume. It’s something superheroes often show an interest in. In the real world, someone who is truly interested in justice doesn’t become a vigilante, not to mention a costumed vigilante. Vigilantism is antithetical to justice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/191 "2011-11-16T17:53:19Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I don’t see Moore expecting us to give a pass to a stock market manipulator. Was he, though? In the scene you mention, he extrapolates what stocks to buy based on what he sees on the televisions – information that’s available to everyone else on the planet at that point. We’re not told that he bought those stocks _ **before** _ setting everything in motion, back in October or September or whatever; we only see him deciding to buy those stocks in November. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/192 "2011-11-16T18:06:16Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Yet he’s happy to take other people’s characters, without permission like he did with ‘The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen’ (did ‘Black Dossier’ even get a release outside of the US after the copyright issues were brought up?) and ‘Lost Girls’, and do whatever the hell he likes with them. > > I like Moore’s comics. I think the man himself is a hypocritical tit. But that’s probably another thread. I have made a similar point myself, but yours is better phrased. Now sure, the characters are (mostly) in the Public Domain, so what he does is (mostly) legal, but the hypocrisy of stealing other authors characters, then complaining when others “misinterpret his work” is galling. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/193 "2011-11-16T18:08:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In the real world, someone who is truly interested in justice doesn’t become a vigilante, not to mention a costumed vigilante. Vigilantism is antithetical to justice. I think you’re assuming that _justice_ equals _due process_, which is all well and good, but may not be everyone’s definition. Some people define justice as “an eye for an eye,” and vigilantism can do that kind quite well. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/194 "2011-11-16T18:08:50Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > He did it that way because the universe he was adapting (the Charlton Universe) had only one Super hero (Captain Atom) and the rest were costumed adventurers (that was a pet peeve of Charlton’s editor back then, to focus on costumed adventurers without super powers). > When Moore was told he had to do away with a strict adaptation of Charlton’s characters, he probably could have totally restarted his project and started to include more superpowers. I can only imagine that since this is what made the Charlton Universe kind of special, he decided to stick to it, even though he was now using an ersatz of it (dont think there’s any other Super universe where precisely the Supers are “ordinary” people). Doc Savage, etc. Really, Moore does not have original ideas. He has \*different takes \*on other dudes ideas. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/195 "2011-11-16T18:10:48Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > There are also the visual details of an alternative-reality 1986 that I find really fun … the airships, the “Gunga Diner,” the weird cigarette holders that now look like something a tweaker or a crack-head would use. I love the cigarette things (I don’t think they’re cigarette holders exactly, I think they’re a not-kill-you replacement for cigarettes) and the electric car charging stations best. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/196 "2011-11-16T18:12:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In the real world, someone who is truly interested in justice doesn’t become a vigilante, not to mention a costumed vigilante. Vigilantism is antithetical to justice. In the real world yes. But look at Rorschach. He believes he is a bringer of justice. He views the system as irreparably broken, and true justice as only possible through vigilantism. After all, he began by helping the cops. He coddled criminals - let them live. But then he wasn’t Rorschach, he was Kovachs in a mask. It’s only with his recognition that the system is broken, and his killing of the child killer/rapist, that he becomes Rorschach who is totally driven by justice. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/197 "2011-11-16T18:13:03Z")
> [@](#): > > I love the cigarette things (I don’t think they’re cigarette holders exactly, I think they’re a not-kill-you replacement for cigarettes) and the electric car charging stations best. And the Pirates-On-The-High-Seas comic books, for a world where superheroes are just guys who live nearby and appear on the occasional talk show! ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/198 "2011-11-16T18:13:16Z")
I found the opening credits to be the best thing about the film. They blew me away but then the rest of the film was patchy as fuck. That scene with Hallelujah, no amount of brain bleach will ever cure me of it. Although I liked the comic, I didn’t love it, maybe it was because my expectations of it were heightened by everything I’d ever heard about it prior to reading it. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/199 "2011-11-16T18:15:40Z")
I like Watchmen but less so with after a couple of viewings. I must say, though, the opening credits are still awesome. To me the whole premise of the comic book was a study on the marlity/immorality of the Superhero genre. You have Dr. Manahattan who is fully amoral, you have the Comedian who overtly immoral, you have Rorshach who is overly moral. The owl who tires desperately to stradle the line between the two, and Silk Spectre who is moral and finally Ozymandius who is deviously immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/200 "2011-11-16T18:16:01Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > That scene with Hallelujah, no amount of brain bleach will ever cure me of it. That was the freaking highlight of the movie. It’s the only scene in which Malin Ackerman was an asset to her role. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=11)