# So we watched Watchmen this weekend and we hated it (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020 "2011-11-15T16:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/301 "2011-11-17T23:33:26Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Anyway, people who didn’t like the movie version might enjoy the Saturday morning cartoon version that came out in the 80s: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w&ob=av3e](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDDHHrt6l4w&ob=av3e) Yes, that’s simply wonderful. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/302 "2011-11-17T23:38:21Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > That only works if you assume that a nuclear confrontation was a high likelihood. Which may be the case, given that the existence of Dr Manhattan seems to have increased tensions rather than relieving them. Sure, he’s America’s ace in the hole to keep the Soviets in check, but they ramp up production to try to outmatch him, and Nixon et al then proceed to act more agressively in the world, thinking they are safe because of him. Ergo, tensions increase. Hmmm. But in 1986, a lot of people assumed a nuclear war was a high likelihood. So Ozymandias’ plan may have seemed cold-blooded but it wasn’t seen as necessarily insane. In the modern post-Soviet world, it seems unnecessary and therefore inexcusable. > [@Irishman](#): > > Not to dispute any of your point, but the comparison of Dr Manhattan to Superman is really not very valid. Superman may have some amazing abilities that us normals can’t match, but ultimately Superman still experiences the world as a human. Mostly. Whereas Dr Manhattan’s abilities put him outside of our understanding of time. It’s the simultaneity of reality that puts him in a tizzy and makes him further and further removed from humanity. We get a much better feel for that in the comics with the Dr Manhattan segment, where he is reflecting on all the things happening and can’t keep time straight, it’s all simultaneous to him. So much that he doesn’t stop the Comedian from murdering the woman in Viet Nam because to him it has already happened. So Dr Manhattan’s experiences are vastly different from Superman’s in that respect. That’s why Superman can have a cover identity and spend time flirting with Lois and think about having a life, whereas Dr Manhattan just becomes dissociated from everything human. I think this was a large part of what Moore was trying to say. It’s unrealistic that Superman would think like a normal person. He’s not a normal person - he’s an alien, he has super-powers, and he spends most of his time fighting crime and saving the world. With his life being so different from everyone else’s, why shouldn’t he be different from everyone else? Same thing with Batman. If a person is crazy enough to dress up like a bat and go out and beat up criminals night after night for decades, why should we think he’s going to be a normal functional human being during the daytime? Barring a split personality, he’s the same obsessed person during the day when he’s Bruce Wayne as he is at night when he’s Batman. > [@Irishman](#): > > Yes, Oxymandias doesn’t come off right in the film, so that is too much clueing he’s the villain. The comic is much better at making his role come out of left field. He’s a very popular celebrity, both from being the best (in behavior as much as skill) of the costumed vigilantes who gave it up willingly before the riots, and being the self-made industrialist, and athlete. There are Viedt action figures, and he puts on a public gymnastics performance. He’s the epitome of a good guy right up until the shoe drops. You don’t get that in the movie. It was even a bigger shock when you read it issue by issue. It wasn’t until almost a year after you first saw Ozymandias that you found out he was the secret master mind behind everything. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/303 "2011-11-18T00:24:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Same thing with Batman. If a person is crazy enough to dress up like a bat and go out and beat up criminals night after night for decades, why should we think he’s going to be a normal functional human being during the daytime? Barring a split personality, he’s the same obsessed person during the day when he’s Bruce Wayne as he is at night when he’s Batman. Which is possibly why “Watchmen” divides the Batman persona into Rorschach (the obsessed crime-fighter) and Nite Owl (the wealthy dilettante crime-fighter) and makes them partners. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/304 "2011-11-18T00:35:00Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Which is possibly why “Watchmen” divides the Batman persona into Rorschach (the obsessed crime-fighter) and Nite Owl (the wealthy dilettante crime-fighter) and makes them partners. The break-up between them was when one of them became a fulltime Bruce Wayne and the other became a fulltime Batman. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/305 "2011-11-18T01:44:31Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > That only works if you assume that a nuclear confrontation was a high likelihood. Which may be the case, given that the existence of Dr Manhattan seems to have increased tensions rather than relieving them. Sure, he’s America’s ace in the hole to keep the Soviets in check, but they ramp up production to try to outmatch him, and Nixon et al then proceed to act more agressively in the world, thinking they are safe because of him. Ergo, tensions increase. Hmmm. Well, my point was that Jon makes that assumption, not that I do. But to take it a step further, I’ll cheat by quoting Moore’s notes: _“the balance of power would be completely different, and I should imagine that Russia would be growing increasingly frightened and restless as they watched the Western alliance growing in strength. The international situation, as a result of this, would be very tense indeed … If the doomsday clock in our own world stands at five minutes to twelve, then in the world we’re talking about, the big hand is just a fraction of a second away from midnight”_. Which goes to Little Nemo’s point: > [@](#): > > But in 1986, a lot of people assumed a nuclear war was a high likelihood. So Ozymandias’ plan may have seemed cold-blooded but it wasn’t seen as necessarily insane. In the modern post-Soviet world, it seems unnecessary and therefore inexcusable. Moore’s already making the point, in that academic piece in the comic, that America’s political leaders _“continually push their unearned advantage until American influence comes uncomfortably close to key areas of Soviet interest. It is as if – with a real live Deity on their side – our leaders have become intoxicated by a heady draught of Omnipotence-by-Association”_. As soon as Doc leaves the planet, the situation changes and both sides can start dealing with each other rationally – first acting like the only-five-minutes-to-midnight world, and eventually transitioning into the modern world – if the superpowers who’ve never yet seen eye-to-eye enough for meetings in Geneva can avoid doing something crazy during the period when all the old rules go out the window, when “opportunistic hostility” from the East sparks “Western alarmism” and “throughout the world there is tension with no sign of a breakthrough”. In the immediate aftermath of Doc leaving, the USSR will invade other countries and the US will be called on to intervene – unless the decision-makers unite in some us-against-them undertaking until rationality prevails in a world where ain’t nobody intoxicated by a heady draught of overconfidence. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/306 "2011-11-18T20:09:50Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > No, I haven’t reread the book in more than a year (and must have read it only a handful of times anyway). And I’ll take the occasion to thank **Aanamika** for making me realize how vividly the story got stuck to my mind witout me realizing it. > I’ll get to the basement and retrieve my treasured copy, though it’s the French translation I’ve got. Not that it matters here because I’m pretty convinced that it is said rather blankly by Veidt when he recalls the whole story at the very end. I think there’s a panel or two where we see the Comedian’s murder and Veidt comments on Blake not really fighting back, letting himself get killed. No, there’s nothing like that - Adrian’s first punch draws blood from Eddie’s mouth and knocks his head into the wall, and he doesn’t get the chance to get back in the fight after that. Veidt beats on him until he’s semi-conscious, then defenestrates him from forty stories above street level. If Blake has the edge in strength - very possible - he never gets the chance to make anything of it. Veidt’s coldly planned and executed assassination doesn’t require Blake to be taking any dives. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/307 "2011-11-18T21:33:45Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > I feel the key to the Comedian was that he was essentially no different than a criminal. He liked hurting other people. He didn’t become a masked vigilante because he wanted to help people. He wanted to beat up people but he was smart enough to realize that if he beat up criminals, he’d be seen as a hero and his violence would be allowed. Later he became a government operative and was committing crimes and killing people - but it was okay because he was doing it for the government. At the risk of pointing out the blindingly obvious, “The Comedian” is “The Joker”. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/308 "2011-11-18T21:43:42Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > No, there’s nothing like that - Adrian’s first punch draws blood from Eddie’s mouth and knocks his head into the wall, and he doesn’t get the chance to get back in the fight after that. Veidt beats on him until he’s semi-conscious, then defenestrates him from forty stories above street level. If Blake has the edge in strength - very possible - he never gets the chance to make anything of it. Veidt’s coldly planned and executed assassination doesn’t require Blake to be taking any dives. Here’s what Ozy says about Blake to Niteowl and Rorschach: “Upon learing the creatur’s intended purpose, Blake’s practiced cynicism cracked. Though appalled, exposing my plan would precipitate greater horrors preventing humanity’s salvation. Even Blake balked at that responsibility, telling only Moloch, who he knew wouldn’t understand…But I had Moloch’s place bugged, and I understood perfectly. The plan Blake ahd uncovered was this: to fiighten governments into cooperation, I would convince them that Earth faced imminent attack by beings from another world. I’m afraid the discovery rather drove the wind from his sails…Blake understood, too. He knew my plane would succeed, though its scale terrified him. That’s why he told nobody. It was too big to discuss…but he understood. At the end, he understood. He understood the portents, knew a dazzling transformation was at hand for mankind. The burtoal world he’d relished would simply cease to be, it’s fierce and brawling denizens rushing to join the Mastodon in obsolesence…in extinction.” ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/309 "2011-11-18T23:30:48Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > At the risk of pointing out the blindingly obvious, “The Comedian” is “The Joker”. At the risk of pointing out the blindingly obvious, the two have nothing in common at all. ---
**Author:** ![kcor1953](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kcor1953/32/3221_2.png) [@kcor1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kcor1953)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/310 "2011-11-19T14:15:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Naw, DC did a comic about a over the hill Supes like back in the 60’s or something like that. Nothing Watchmen did was new. This may be the Imaginary Novel (Imaginary Story, in the vernacular) ““The Abominable Brats” (both Supe and Batman are greying and have sons–you-all must see the cover sometime) in World’s Finest 157, 1966. But there were other Imaginary Stories, including “The Death of Superman” Superman 149 (1960), with major realistic events in them–they just didn’t occur in the"reality” of the characters. There were other old Supes stories (Supersons in the mid-70s, and indeed a disabled old Supes in a wheelchair Action 396, also from the 70s) DrDeth may have seen–but these came after my Superman days and I don’t know if they were Imaginary. Also, the element of variations on known heroic characters goes back to the 40s at least (Some Batman newspaper strips featured Batman/Robin type teams from other nations). I also direct researchers to the Crime Syndicate, introduced in JLA 29 (1964), alternate versions of DC characters and “real,” just from Earth 3. Arguably, as the Watchmen are not in any other comics “reality,” they are no more original than any Imaginary Story. But as a stand-alone, complete story published in relatively short order in a handy, mainstream format and manner AND well done, Watchmen deserves much respect. ---
**Author:** ![kcor1953](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kcor1953/32/3221_2.png) [@kcor1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kcor1953)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/311 "2011-11-19T16:56:56Z")
> [@mckall](#): > > Was it this book? [Action Comics #270]([http://www.dcindexes.com/database/story-details.php?storyid=14738](http://www.dcindexes.com/database/story-details.php?storyid=14738) Issue ) > There’s a synopsis in the link. I think it’s a stretch to claim he’s had no original ideas based upon this particular book. C’mon. > > It’s another of the fun ‘dream’ issues from the Silver Age, not an aged Superman like in Kingdom Come. > > As to the issue of using Charlton characters, he’s said it was due to them being up for grabs. Since DC decided they wanted to keep them, at least Captain Atom, alive for future use; he created his own line of characters based very much on the Charlton ones. > > He did this _precisely because_ that line had only one ‘super powered’ hero and the rest were regular folks in costumes. The whole point of using Charlton characters to begin with. Good example and one I didn’t recall (Action 270), I still stick by my thots on what Moore did that was original. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/312 "2011-11-19T17:59:31Z")
> [@kcor1953](#): > > This may be the Imaginary Novel (Imaginary Story, in the vernacular) ““The Abominable Brats” (both Supe and Batman are greying and have sons–you-all must see the cover sometime) in World’s Finest 157, 1966. But there were other Imaginary Stories, including “The Death of Superman” Superman 149 (1960), with major realistic events in them–they just didn’t occur in the"reality” of the characters. > > There were other old Supes stories (Supersons in the mid-70s, and indeed a disabled old Supes in a wheelchair Action 396, also from the 70s) DrDeth may have seen–but these came after my Superman days and I don’t know if they were Imaginary. > > Also, the element of variations on known heroic characters goes back to the 40s at least (Some Batman newspaper strips featured Batman/Robin type teams from other nations). I also direct researchers to the Crime Syndicate, introduced in JLA 29 (1964), alternate versions of DC characters and “real,” just from Earth 3. > > Arguably, as the Watchmen are not in any other comics “reality,” they are no more original than any Imaginary Story. Those sound like the ones, right story right period. Thanks! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=15)