# So we watched Watchmen this weekend and we hated it (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020 "2011-11-15T16:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/21 "2011-11-15T17:58:38Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > In Vietnam he kills a native pregnant woman in front of Dr. Manhattan. I swear that was in the movie as well as in the comic. > > Maybe it was the extended DVD edition, tho. Oh, right, thank you very much, I do remember. The little Vietnamese girl. Yeah, man, he really was an asshole, wasn’t he? I guess I had kind of blocked that out - I still remember _Platoon_, which is a very difficult movie to watch. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/22 "2011-11-15T18:00:14Z")
Dr. Manhattan is at the Comedian’s funeral, and flashes back to Vietnam. The Comedian is happily gunning down everyone. Dr. Manhattan shows up, explodes all the opposition, and so they surrender. Manhattan and Comedian are in a bar after the surrender, and the Comedian is making sardonic comments. The pregnant woman shows up to ask the Comedian about the future; he tells her to get lost; she breaks a bottle and cuts his face. He shoots her. Dr. Manhattan is shocked and protests that she was pregnant, but the Comedian points out that he could have blown up the Comedian to stop it, and that Manhattan was drifting away from humanity. He then goes in search of a medic, while Dr. Manhattan contemplates the dead pregnant woman. It’s in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/23 "2011-11-15T18:15:33Z")
You’re not supposed to care about the Comedian’s murder because you empathize with _him_. You’re supposed to care about it because the _other_ heroes care about it, and you’re supposed to empathize with _them_. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/24 "2011-11-15T18:16:35Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Oh, right, thank you very much, I do remember. The little Vietnamese girl. Yeah, man, he really was an asshole, wasn’t he? I guess I had kind of blocked that out - I still remember _Platoon_, which is a very difficult movie to watch. In most movies, the Comedian would be the villain. In Watchmen, he’s just another evil dude, only less evil in many ways than the ultimate villain. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/25 "2011-11-15T18:19:14Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I guess I didn’t so mcuh mean sympathize or empathize. Why should I care even a little about the Comedian’s murder? I don’t think you were supposed to care about him, particularly; the point is that someone broke into a superhero’s apartment and murdered him in his secret identity, and the question is _ **why?** _ And, regardless of how unsympathetic he is, it turns out that he was killed because he’d discovered a criminal plot that even had _ **him** _ weeping: he’s ruthless, he’s amoral, he kills for profit, he kills for pleasure, and this freaked him out? What the heck is going down? > [@](#): > > Hmm. Anything with the assassination of JFK these days I just totally roll my eyes at. It’s also implied that the Comedian got away with murdering Woodward and Bernstein, which is why Nixon is still in office. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/26 "2011-11-15T18:20:31Z")
Agreed that in many ways, Watchmen was an analysis and deconstruction of comic books, so it’s so difficult to transfer into a movie and still have it… work. The film completely left out the concurrently-running pirate comic “Tales of the Black Freighter”; there is a DVD extra of it, but the true significance of it as a commentary on/allegory for the actions occurring within the Watchmen storyline is lost or diminished without the pages being interspersed. One issue of the comic, called “Fearful Symmetry,” (thank you Wiki for reminding me of this) used the technique of the center facing pages mirroring each other in panel layout, and the previous pages mirroring the next, and so forth. It was also an analysis of comic book heroes not entirely as heroes, and of the effects of the Cold War and the political climate of the mid to late '80s - much like his “V for Vendetta” criticized Thatcherian politics… and had you warily cheering for an anarchist who blew up buildings and brainwashed people, among many other crimes. (Side note: I’m not entirely sure that you’re supposed to empathize with any of the superheroes, except in regards to how their government turned on them. The majority of these heroes aren’t all that heroic. **Mahaloth** is spot on.) This is tough to cram into a completely different medium. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/27 "2011-11-15T18:20:46Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Hmm. Anything with the assassination of JFK these days I just totally roll my eyes at. I kind of feel like it’s almost an in-joke in the industry, “HAW HAW he killed JFK” and never take it seriously. Truth be told I am sick unto death of everyone bringing up their own theories, whether for real or for fun or to sell tickets, and whoring out poor JFK. So I guess I didn’t think much of that and certainly didn’t count it amongst his “evils”. The biggest evil there was attributing the death to yet _another_ person. :rolleyes: I hated having the Comedian kill JFK too. It’s implied in the comic that he may have been the shooter, but wasn’t confirmed or explicit at all. I also hated that they got rid of the scar on his face. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/28 "2011-11-15T18:20:48Z")
I liked the movie, I thought it had a lot more depth to it than any other superhero movie I’ve seen of late. The characters were flawed, fought against their flaws, didn’t always succeed. Thor was a well-made, decorative bauble by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/29 "2011-11-15T18:51:14Z")
Albert? ---
**Author:** ![Meltdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Meltdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meltdown)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/30 "2011-11-15T19:02:28Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > The film completely left out the concurrently-running pirate comic “Tales of the Black Freighter”; there is a DVD extra of it, but the true significance of it as a commentary on/allegory for the actions occurring within the Watchmen storyline is lost or diminished without the pages being interspersed. Just in case you’re interested, there IS a version of the film with the “Tales of the Black Freighter” sequences interspersed within the running of the film, mimicing the experience of reading the comic. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/31 "2011-11-15T19:02:53Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You don’t really need to, at least beyond the fact that it interests you enough to get you reading. The Comedian’s murder is basically a MacGuffin. It happens so the story can get started, and the story itself is mainly a vehicle for Moore to explore his ideas - what the existence of a superhero like Dr. Manhattan would have done to the world, It is not a MacGuffin, it is the inciting incident. The thing that starts the story is call the inciting incident. He murder sends Rorschach on his quest to find the truth. It also deals with aging and death of “superheros”. Something comics hadn’t done at the time. What happens when Bruce Wayne gets too old to do that? Well now we know because those stories have been written because Watchmen made it possible. I find it interesting that Mika didn’t care about the Comedian’s death but like Rorschach when Rorschach only cared about the Comedian’s death. Dr. M did not cause cancer in his friends. This was a set up to get Dr. M to freak out and leave the planet so Dr. M could be “the bad guy” and make the world unite against him. ---
**Author:** ![kushiel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbce88/32.png) [@kushiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kushiel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/32 "2011-11-15T19:03:33Z")
I don’t know if **Anaamika** would like the comic either. I read the comic before seeing the movie and I think I liked the movie more, just because of the absence of the Black Freighter. I know there was some sort of symbolism in it, but really, it just frustrated me because I was in the middle of a story and it felt like a commercial interrupting me all the time. I think it’s kinda like Star Wars. If it was a new thing you experienced when it came out, it would have been revolutionary, but having grown up with the derivatives, it doesn’t feel that awesome. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/33 "2011-11-15T19:19:33Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > It also deals with aging and death of “superheros”. Something comics hadn’t done at the time. What happens when Bruce Wayne gets too old to do that? Well now we know because those stories have been written because Watchmen made it possible. If you’re talking about “The Dark Knight Returns”, that came out a few months before Watchmen. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/34 "2011-11-15T19:28:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You’re not supposed to care about the Comedian’s murder because you empathize with _him_. You’re supposed to care about it because the _other_ heroes care about it, and you’re supposed to empathize with _them_. But there’s nothing in any of them to empathize with either–they’re all soul-less wooden dolls. There’s no _there_ there. Except for Rorshach–his there is grimy and slimy and there’s something you don’t want to know about moving under that pile of garbage and it smells of rot and decay, but at least it exists. He’s the only truly human character in the whole bloated, boring-ass mess. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/35 "2011-11-15T19:32:31Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > I guess I didn’t so mcuh mean sympathize or empathize. Why should I care even a little about the Comedian’s murder? Matter of fact, why should I care about the murder of any of these jerks? They never gave me a reason, and “because they’re people” is not enough reason to care. While The Comedian plays out the scenario of the sadist-positioned-as-hero, he is also used to comment on America. The U.S.‘s willingness to accept and exploit players like The Comedian comments on the base drive for power by America - and the possibility of similar _realpolitik_ actions like Ozymandias’ “pragmatic genocide.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/36 "2011-11-15T19:33:15Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > But there’s nothing in any of them to empathize with either–they’re all soul-less wooden dolls. Nite Owl is usually pretty low-key about it, but he’s got heart. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/37 "2011-11-15T19:36:24Z")
I think that, at least in the comic version, Dan and Laurie (the younger Nite Owl and younger Silk Spectre) are supposed to be the most “accessible” characters. Like nearly everyone else, they’re flat on screen, but in the comic they came across as very human, with good intentions and the least moral ambiguity/problem areas. Edit: Beaten to the punch! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/38 "2011-11-15T19:36:37Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > It is not a MacGuffin, it is the inciting incident. The thing that starts the story is call the inciting incident. He murder sends Rorschach on his quest to find the truth. That’s a better term. But what I was trying to say is that you don’t need to care about The Comedian or even the murder mystery. Considering the fact that it kicks off the story and drive the plot, the question of who killed The Comedian is in the background for a lot of the book. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/39 "2011-11-15T19:42:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s a better term. But what I was trying to say is that you don’t need to care about The Comedian or even the murder mystery. Considering the fact that it kicks off the story and drive the plot, the question of who killed The Comedian is in the background for a lot of the book. The original title was, in fact, _“Who Killed The Peacemaker?”_ ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/40 "2011-11-15T19:48:33Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > But there’s nothing in any of them to empathize with either–they’re all soul-less wooden dolls. There’s no _there_ there. Except for Rorshach–his there is grimy and slimy and there’s something you don’t want to know about moving under that pile of garbage and it smells of rot and decay, but at least it exists. He’s the only truly human character in the whole bloated, boring-ass mess. Bingo. The only other one who has any sort of personality is shy, diffident, but inwardly confident Nite Owl. The younger Silk Spectre has no personality, and anyway, it makes me very angry when a woman leaves one man to run immediately to the arms of another. What little characterization they gave me for Nite Owl made me feel bad for him - why should he accept being second place? The other heroes? I couldn’t even name them or pick them out of a lineup. The pretty, shiny boy? What were his motivations for detonating the nukes again? Killing 15 million people supposedly to ensure world peace? Why? We don’t know. We just know it works in the movie, and therefore, are supposed to accept it. Plus, I know he was not all he seemed from the get-go. And so he turns out to be not evil, quite, but…psychopathic. Cuz you can make whatever justifications you want, murdering 15 million people makes you a nut. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=3)