# So we watched Watchmen this weekend and we hated it (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020 "2011-11-15T16:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/61 "2011-11-15T20:43:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > One think I don’t understand is why Dr. Manhattan didn’t kill Ozymandias at the end. Sure, he may have saved the world, but he did murder millions of people - and not only did he get away with it, he actually profited financially from it. Dr. Manhattan could have killed him with a wave of his hand, and should have. There was no reason the arrogant prick should have kept on living. Yes, and no reason for Manhattan to spare him, considering what he did to Roscharch. Good point. FTR, I think I may have spelled “Roscharch” differently every time so far. As to Dark Knight and Dark Knight Returns, perhaps I’ll start another thread. I had no idea they weren’t related. villa, I did like V for Vendetta, by the way. Didn’t love it, but at least V had a lot of personality and characterization. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/62 "2011-11-15T20:45:07Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > One think I don’t understand is why Dr. Manhattan didn’t kill Ozymandias at the end. Sure, he may have saved the world, but he did murder millions of people - and not only did he get away with it, he actually profited financially from it. Dr. Manhattan could have killed him with a wave of his hand, and should have. There was no reason the arrogant prick should have kept on living. Deciding that humanity should survive and actually caring about whether any one particular person lives or dies are two different things. Despite his change of position on the former, Jon had long since passed the point of no return on the latter. The only reason he disassembled Rorschach was to silence him, and he’d made clear the fact that the only thing that would keep him quiet would be getting put down. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/63 "2011-11-15T20:45:18Z")
That makes perfect sense to me. Manhattan cares enough about humans to save them, but justice without a notable beneficial consequence doesn’t hit his radar. Humanity doesn’t gain from Adrian’s death, and revenge isn’t an emotion Manhattan will bother with. ---
**Author:** ![Bakhesh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Bakhesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bakhesh)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/64 "2011-11-15T20:46:22Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > One think I don’t understand is why Dr. Manhattan didn’t kill Ozymandias at the end. Sure, he may have saved the world, but he did murder millions of people - and not only did he get away with it, he actually profited financially from it. Dr. Manhattan could have killed him with a wave of his hand, and should have. There was no reason the arrogant prick should have kept on living. I think Doc Manhattan is so far gone that he doesn’t really care about the affairs of humans. If you saw an ant kill some other ants, would you feel obliged to enforce some ant justice? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/65 "2011-11-15T20:49:23Z")
> [@Bakhesh](#): > > I think Doc Manhattan is so far gone that he doesn’t really care about the affairs of humans. If you saw an ant kill some other ants, would you feel obliged to enforce some ant justice? Ozymandias makes this exact comparison at the end of the book when a reporter asks him about Dr. Manhattan’s political views. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/66 "2011-11-15T21:04:28Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > villa, I did like V for Vendetta, by the way. Didn’t love it, but at least V had a lot of personality and characterization. That’s a third one for you to read. The movie made me so angry with how dumbed down it was.Ev Evie is far better as a 15 year old factory worker and hooker than a successful career woman. And why would the child of a labor activist who had been sent to the campus be allowed to work in Broadcasting? BTW - even Rorschach knew he had to die at the end. He was smart enough to realize there was no alternative. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/67 "2011-11-15T21:06:43Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Yes, and no reason for Manhattan to spare him, considering what he did to Roscharch. Good point. What “he” did to Rorschach? Doc killed Rorschach _ **because** _ Doc figured Ozzy was right. _“Logically,”_ said Doc, _“I’m afraid he’s right.”_ He understands what Ozzy did and explicitly says he doesn’t condemn it. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/68 "2011-11-15T21:07:07Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > As to Dark Knight and Dark Knight Returns, perhaps I’ll start another thread. I had no idea they weren’t related. The Dark Knight Returns is about Batman coming out of retirement to save the world. It’s actually got more in common with Watchmen than it does with the Dark Knight movie. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/69 "2011-11-15T21:08:42Z")
Yes, I understood villa’s point, in that Roscharch himself saw there was no place in this Brave New World for him. What I didn’t understand, really, is why Doc let Ozymandias live. But I also understand killing Roscharch is more “non-interference” than killing Oxymandias. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/70 "2011-11-15T21:11:22Z")
What does Adrian’s death advance. There’s no deterrent as no one can know. It simply deprives humanity of the services of the smartest man alive. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/71 "2011-11-15T21:13:14Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > What I didn’t understand, really, is why Doc let Ozymandias live. Why did Ozzy let himself live? Because he thought he was right. Doc agreed. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/72 "2011-11-15T21:15:16Z")
Right - there’s probably some “You created this mess, you can clean it up” thinking going on. That’s why I’ve always thought The New Frontiersman publishing Rorschach’s diary would be pointless. Adrian’s still around to suppress & deal with a crackpot right wing rag. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/73 "2011-11-15T21:16:38Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Why did Ozzy let himself live? Because he thought he was right. Doc agreed. I don’t agree. Manhattan doesn’t factor in the past. There’s no idea of justice. Every action is taken based on the future effect. Killing rorschach prevented him making things worse. Manhattan could still think Adrian’s plan was stupid, but once it had happened, the costs of blowing it open exceeded keeping it silent. Hence the death of Rorschach. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/74 "2011-11-15T21:21:07Z")
> [@Meltdown](#): > > Just in case you’re interested, there IS a version of the film with the “Tales of the Black Freighter” sequences interspersed within the running of the film, mimicing the experience of reading the comic. This is the version that was shown on TNT this past Saturday night. I still can’t believe I stayed up to 2 in the AM to watch the film, however. I liked both the graphic novel and the movie, but I can separate the two mediums more readily than some (apparently) and take them for what they’re worth. I prefer the novel, though. The “Hitler reacts badly to finding out the ending of _Watchmen_ was changed” was the first _Downfall_ mashup I ever saw. Too bad it’s been taken down. ☹ (However, my “Hitler gets mad about Doctor Who” mashup still stands after 1 week on YouTube! 😉 ). I think Hitler was wrong, though: the graphic novel ending probably would have seemed silly on the big screen - the film ending worked better, imho, visually, story-wise, and character-arc wise. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/75 "2011-11-15T21:24:07Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I don’t agree. Manhattan doesn’t factor in the past. There’s no idea of justice. Every action is taken based on the future effect. Killing rorschach prevented him making things worse. Manhattan could still think Adrian’s plan was stupid, but once it had happened, the costs of blowing it open exceeded keeping it silent. I think it’s slightly more in Ozzy’s favor than that. Ozzy: “By exposing me, you would sacrifice the peace so many died for today.” Dan: “Peace based on a lie.” Ozzy: “But peace nonetheless.” Doc: “He’s right. Exposing Adrian would only doom the world to nuclear destruction \*\*\*again.” \*\*\* Bolding mine. Doc seems to agree not just about how to preserve life going forward, but also about whether the world would’ve done blowed up real good otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/76 "2011-11-15T21:26:08Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Right - there’s probably some “You created this mess, you can clean it up” thinking going on. > > That’s why I’ve always thought The New Frontiersman publishing Rorschach’s diary would be pointless. Adrian’s still around to suppress & deal with a crackpot right wing rag. Hmm. I never got the idea publishing the diary was to hurt Adrian. I got the idea it was so maybe, this time, we’d read the book and remember the mistake we almost made. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/77 "2011-11-15T21:31:53Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I think it’s slightly more in Ozzy’s favor than that. > > Ozzy: “By exposing me, you would sacrifice the peace so many died for today.” > Dan: “Peace based on a lie.” > Ozzy: “But peace nonetheless.” > Doc: “He’s right. Exposing Adrian would only doom the world to nuclear destruction \*\*\*again.” \*\*\* > > Bolding mine. Doc seems to agree not just about how to preserve life going forward, but also about whether the world would’ve done blowed up real good otherwise. I don’t disagree. But I don’t think he would have acted any different had the plan been a disaster…killing 80% of the world, for example. If things get worse if it is exposed, he kills Rorschach. What’s done is done, and prior morality doesn’t impact forward looking decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/78 "2011-11-15T21:31:58Z")
> [@kushiel](#): > > I know there was some sort of symbolism in it, but really, it just frustrated me because I was in the middle of a story and it felt like a commercial interrupting me all the time. It’s an interruption in that it’s a commentary on the story. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/79 "2011-11-15T21:32:31Z")
Hee, this thread is 10x more interesting than the movie! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/80 "2011-11-15T21:41:32Z")
> [@villa](#): > > If you do read the book, and you should, because its head and shoulders above the movie, read the Dark Knight Returns at the same time. They both have a similar element of the overdependence of the USA on a single, apparently all powerful individual who demonstrates himself to be eventually fallible. It’s been said (by Frank Miller, I think) that _The Dark Knight Returns_ was the funeral for the traditional superhero comic, and _Watchmen_ was the autopsy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=5)