# So we watched Watchmen this weekend and we hated it (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 15, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020 "2011-11-15T16:57:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/141 "2011-11-16T13:26:44Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > He is the personification of the ultimate Randian Objectivist - someone who believes that there is an elite who have a bigger understanding - and are willing to make the hard choices for the Better Good. Ozymandias isn’t the [Objectivist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_%28comics%29) [personification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_A) in the group. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/142 "2011-11-16T13:28:42Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > But maybe that was the feeling. According to the comic, the US dominated the Soviets because of the arrival of Dr Manhattan, and the government purposefully using him as the ultimate checkmate. Anytime he senses them trying to launch missiles, he can obliterate them. I don’t think he can. According to the same academic piece in the comic, the Pentagon estimates that Doc can “deflect or disarm at least sixty percent of all incoming missiles before they had reached their targets.” It likewise spells out that Doc “could at any time destroy large areas of Soviet territory”. The guy’s powers aren’t limitless. > [@](#): > > Not that he’s aware of an alternate existence without the plot that would have had the certainty of destruction. Well, yeah. Again, for me the comparison quote is what Doc says after teleporting a crowd away from the '77 protest before things got out of hand: _“The next day, I am reading in the paper of two people who suffered heart attacks upon suddenly finding themselves indoors. More would’ve suffered during a riot, I’m certain.”_ It’s not that he’s aware of an alternate existence; it’s just that he’s capable of mundanely reasoning about stuff like that and deciding that a smaller number of folks keeling over isn’t as bad as letting the anticipated violence play out. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/143 "2011-11-16T13:33:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Just from watching the movie, it seems to me that Moore is the kind of guy who believes that the ends always justify the means. That seemed to be the main lesson of the story. That is so not the lesson. And certainly not Moore’s viewpoint. Alan Moore is definitely not an “ends always justify the means” kind of person. _Sometimes_ they might, other times you should stand in horror at what people do to justify their actions. Despite my earlier (irreverent) post, it is pretty clear Ozymandias is _not_ justified, and neither the comic nor the movie paint him as such. As fucked-up as he may be, Rorschach is ultimately our hero, and what are his last words on the matter of ends and means? “No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise” ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/144 "2011-11-16T13:43:35Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Just from watching the movie, it seems to me that Moore is the kind of guy who believes that the ends always justify the means. That seemed to be the main lesson of the story. This potential for the messages of his work to be misinterpreted is one reason why Moore never approves of any adaptations into other media. (The main reason, to the best of my understanding, is simply that it’s a different medium.) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/145 "2011-11-16T14:09:06Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I don’t think he can. According to the same academic piece in the comic, the Pentagon estimates that Doc can “deflect or disarm at least sixty percent of all incoming missiles before they had reached their targets.” It likewise spells out that Doc “could at any time destroy large areas of Soviet territory”. The guy’s powers aren’t limitless. Unless there’s more to it than what you just quoted, that’s not what it says. It defines a lower limit, but does not define an upper limit. And that makes sense - it’s not like the government has a power meter that goes up to infinity, so unless they actually _reach_ Dr Manhattan’s limit, there’s no way of knowing how much further he can go. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/146 "2011-11-16T14:16:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m not talking about their superpowers, I’m talking about their roles. Whenever you have a team of people working together, each one will have a different role to play - see the [Five Man Band](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FiveManBand)concept from TV Tropes. The reason this cliche is so popular is that it _works_, as can be seen in just about every war movie, heist flick and fantasy tale ever produced. It would have been nice if the Watchmen had even hinted in this direction; instead, what we had was six or seven inferior Batman knockoffs, and God. I can see what you’re saying, but I think you’re going a bit too far. Nite Owl is a brilliant inventor who sets his radar-invisible flying submarine to “hover” in between using it as his mobile base of operations; when he shows up at Ozzy’s fortress, he doesn’t pick the lock but simply whips out a pocket laser to burn through it (and then, of course, tries to zap the guy). Rorschach can’t build a patentable invention to save his life, but he’s a terrific sleuth who excels at brutal interrogation techniques – though he, like Nite Owl, never uses firearms; that’s the lifetime of experience the Comedian brings to the table, along with his valuable government contacts. Like the man said, it’s supposed to be about their differing psychologies instead of their differing roles – but they’ve got those, too. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/147 "2011-11-16T14:24:06Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Unless there’s more to it than what you just quoted, that’s not what it says. It defines a lower limit, but does not define an upper limit. No, you’re right; it goes on to clarify the “at least sixty percent” mark: _“Stated simply, Dr. Manhattan cannot stop all the Soviet warheads from reaching American soil. Even a greatly reduced percentage would still be more than enough to effectively end the organic life in the northern hemisphere. The suggestion that the presence of a superhuman has inclined the world more towards peace is refudiated by the sharp increase in both Russian and American nuclear stockpiles since the advent of Dr Manhattan. Infinite destruction divided by two or ten or twenty is still infinite destruction.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/148 "2011-11-16T14:30:47Z")
This thread is interesting because I didn’t fully pick up on the archetypes when watching the movie although, in retrospect, it’s pretty obvious. Manhattan as all-powerful Superman type, Comedian as violent vigilante, Nite Owl as inventor, Ozymandias as super-rich villain, etc. I think I got as far as thinking “Haha… he looks like Batman” (although the “Batman” role is split up with Rorschach as ‘scary dude in the shadows’). It does sound as though the comic was a product of its time and you sort of got on the boat back then or else it loses its impact now that we _expect_ “superheroes” to be damaged in some way and dismiss the pure-spirited Superman types as kid’s stuff. Sort of reminds me about the recent thread about _Clerks_ and how you kinda had to be there and it didn’t age well. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/149 "2011-11-16T14:32:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > One thing that ran through the comic book series was scenes of various ordinary people on the streets; a schoolkid, a newsstand dealer, a taxi driver. They would only appear in a panel or two, saying something about the main story. In one sense they were sort of expository - they were offered a man-in-the street’s eye view of what the superheroes we’re doing. But we’d see them in issue after issue and they gradually were filled in as characters - we learned their names, we learned about their families and where they grew up. And I think Moore was making a subtle point - it wasn’t just a world of superheroes. It was a world where billions of ordinary people lived too and they’re more than just background props in a story about a superhero fighting a supervillain. > > But all these characters were cut from the movie. In the movie, it was just a story about superheroes. Ozymandius may have killed ten million people but we didn’t know any of their names. Right - virtually every minor character in the GN - the news stand vendor, the lesbian truck driver (and that was pretty edgy for a late 80’s comic book) & her girlfriend, the kid reading the comic, the prison psychiatrist and his wife, the two police detectives - all were in Times Square at the climax, and all were murdered by Ozymandias. No one we knew anything about was killed in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/150 "2011-11-16T14:37:06Z")
I am still reading the thread, btw, even though I have run out of things to add. I still like the discussion and am learning new things. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/151 "2011-11-16T14:40:52Z")
Lots of good points about the nature of Watchmen. I think it’s an interesting work, but I didn’t find it that engaging when I read it. It probably had more impact in 1986, when a nuclear exchange looked a lot more possible, and also for people who’ve more exposure to comic book tropes. One point about the costumed adventurers, they are essentially vigilantes. Even the most balanced and likeable of them, Dan and Laurie, mostly get involved with it for their own gratification. I think that was the point of Dan’s impotence, which he loses after taking up crimefighting again. > [@Lobohan](#): > > As an aside, if there were to be a postscript for Watchmen, I want it to be that Doc didn’t destroy Rorschach, he disrupted his intrinsic field, so that for the next twenty years he’s been putting his body back together, not like Osterman did with watchmaker’s precision, but with insane determination. I want a near-omnipotent Rorschach. That would be truely horrible, like having a god who would break your fingers for thinking bad thoughts. > [@Alessan](#): > > Just from watching the movie, it seems to me that Moore is the kind of guy who believes that the ends always justify the means. That seemed to be the main lesson of the story. No, not at all, we are supposed to be appalled. Both by the fact that humanity has got itself to the brink of armageddon, and at the way leaders are prepared to play God with the lives of others, with little or no remorse. Moore’s stated intention was to present radical ideologies and let the reader decide what they thought of them. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/152 "2011-11-16T14:49:42Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > This potential for the messages of his work to be misinterpreted is one reason why Moore never approves of any adaptations into other media. (The main reason, to the best of my understanding, is simply that it’s a different medium.) Yet he’s happy to take other people’s characters, without permission like he did with ‘The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen’ (did ‘Black Dossier’ even get a release outside of the US after the copyright issues were brought up?) and ‘Lost Girls’, and do whatever the hell he likes with them. I like Moore’s comics. I think the man himself is a hypocritical tit. But that’s probably another thread. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/153 "2011-11-16T14:51:13Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > No, not at all, we are supposed to be appalled. Both by the fact that humanity has got itself to the brink of armageddon, and at the way leaders are prepared to play God with the lives of others, with little or no remorse. Moore’s stated intention was to present radical ideologies and let the reader decide what they thought of them. That’s just your take on it. When Moore finally explains Ozymandias’s story and origin, you get what he’s trying to do. He’s fighting for Humankind, it’s Dr Manhattan the villain in Ozy’s story (and Dr Manhattan is quite reminiscent of Marvel’s Beyonder -think they were published at the same time- and how dangerous an idle God would be to humankind). The core of the book is not about who is the villain, but that the Truth is dispersed between a lot of characters, and that only the reader gets to see it. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/154 "2011-11-16T14:52:20Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Yet he’s happy to take other people’s characters, without permission like he did with ‘The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen’ (did ‘Black Dossier’ even get a release outside of the US after the copyright issues were brought up?) and ‘Lost Girls’, and do whatever the hell he likes with them. > > I like Moore’s comics. I think the man himself is a hypocritical tit. But that’s probably another thread. Is that you John Byrne? ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/155 "2011-11-16T14:57:08Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Yet he’s happy to take other people’s characters, without permission like he did with ‘The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen’ (did ‘Black Dossier’ even get a release outside of the US after the copyright issues were brought up?) and ‘Lost Girls’, and do whatever the hell he likes with them. > > I like Moore’s comics. I think the man himself is a hypocritical tit. But that’s probably another thread. Oh sure, I can see that, though I can also see the argument that he is intentionally running with/reinterpreting/twisting those characters and stories from other mediums. He makes no claims of being faithful to the source, while film adaptations generally do or are at least perceived as such. I suspect I hold similar views on the man and his work. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/156 "2011-11-16T15:01:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Ozymandias isn’t the [Objectivist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Question_%28comics%29) [personification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_A) in the group. I assume you are making the connection between Steve Ditko’s The Question - a character explicitly based on Randian philosophy - and his Watchmen counterpart, Rohrschach. You’re right, I am not summarizing Ozymandias correctly, but there is a “Hubristic Man” component - a belief in elites… ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/157 "2011-11-16T15:03:34Z")
While I still like the movie, my problem with it its how it glosses over the central part of the book to me - the exploitation of relationships between the characters. In the book we see flashes of how Dan’s relationship with Rorschach is possibly the only good thing in Rorschach’s life. Lauren’s relationship with Sally and Sally’s with the Comedian don’t stand out in the movie as they do in the book. Manhattan’s failure to relate to anyone; paralleled by Adrian’s self imposed solitude, killing even his faithful servants and pet. And then all the intermingled relationships of the minor normal characters mentioned above. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/158 "2011-11-16T15:04:02Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Seriously, who watches _Watchmen_? I did it 35 minutes ago. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/159 "2011-11-16T15:08:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > As fucked-up as he may be, Rorschach is ultimately our hero, and what are his last words on the matter of ends and means? > “No. Not even in the face of Armageddon. Never compromise” But is that really Moore’s point? After all, everyone agrees that Ozymandias’s plan _worked_, and Rorschach dies purposelessly, out alone in the cold, because he can ‘never compromise’. I don’t think we’re meant to see him as being particularly heroic in comparison to the rest. I think we’re meant to empathize with him being unwilling (more like unable) to adjust his personal principles for the good of humanity. I think one of the questions in _Watchmen_ is whether or not there are possibilities so dire that taking and ends outweigh the means approach to prevent them is reasonable. And I think that is left unanswered. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020/160 "2011-11-16T15:16:48Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > That’s just your take on it. When Moore finally explains Ozymandias’s story and origin, you get what he’s trying to do. He’s fighting for Humankind, it’s Dr Manhattan the villain in Ozy’s story (and Dr Manhattan is quite reminiscent of Marvel’s Beyonder -think they were published at the same time- and how dangerous an idle God would be to humankind). The core of the book is not about who is the villain, but that the Truth is dispersed between a lot of characters, and that only the reader gets to see it. Excellent point! And, I also wanted to add that I think the deconstruction (as presented in the GN) is neither dated nor cliche. We’re as wedded as ever to single-note, black-and-white hero worship as we ever were, the more recent Batman films notwithstanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-we-watched-watchmen-this-weekend-and-we-hated-it-open-spoilers/603020.md?page=9)