# So... what about this elephant painting a self-portrait? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 27, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893 "2008-03-27T05:23:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Baraqiyal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@Baraqiyal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baraqiyal)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/1 "2008-03-27T05:23:53Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/He7Ge7Sogrk/hqdefault.jpg "ORIGINAL Elephant Painting") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk) It has to be a hoax, right? I didn’t see anything on Snopes. ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/2 "2008-03-27T05:49:13Z")
That’s pretty incredible but I can believe that it’s true. The flower painting is blowing my mind, as it represents a pretty remarkable level of abstraction. The reason I say this is that a recent National Geographic [article](http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/10/061030-asian-elephants.html) states: [QUOTE=National Geographic] Elephants can recognize themselves in mirrors, according to a new study. Humans, great apes, and dolphins are the only other animals known to possess this form of self-awareness. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/3 "2008-03-27T05:51:03Z")
[BBC article from almost 2 years ago](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5203120.stm) on elephants painting self-portraits. I can believe it. If that video is legit, then wow. Where the hell do I buy an elephant? ---
**Author:** ![Baraqiyal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@Baraqiyal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baraqiyal)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/4 "2008-03-27T06:23:41Z")
Interesting… I didn’t realize that elephants were a member of that exclusive club of self-awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/5 "2008-03-27T07:24:45Z")
That is bloody awesome. The mind reels at the implications. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/6 "2008-03-27T07:48:54Z")
Call me an old skeptic but I don’t believe this for a moment. One of two explanations present themselves - video fakery or subtle keeper guidance. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/7 "2008-03-27T08:13:24Z")
Check out all the other Youtubeclips and semi-documentaries on this phenomenon on the Web then. I believe it. ---
**Author:** ![Will\_Repair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a698b9/32.png) [@Will\_Repair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Will_Repair)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/8 "2008-03-27T08:24:47Z")
I’m surprised anyone is willing to talk about the elephant in the portrait. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/9 "2008-03-27T10:43:18Z")
I’m skeptical. I don’t believe the video was faked, but I do believe it would be possible to train or direct an elephant to paint. I’ve seen a chicken play the piano, so why shouldn’t an elephant, with its much more sophisticated brain and precisely controllable trunk, be able to be trained how to paint a portrait? At this point I’m not willing to believe that the elephant came up with the portrait spontaneously. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/10 "2008-03-27T10:59:15Z")
What does it matter if it’s spontaneous or trained? That’s a neat painting either way! ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/11 "2008-03-27T11:57:58Z")
[QUOTE=psychonaut] I’m skeptical. I don’t believe the video was faked, but I do believe it would be possible to train or direct an elephant to paint. I’ve seen a chicken play the piano, so why shouldn’t an elephant, with its much more sophisticated brain and precisely controllable trunk, be able to be trained how to paint a portrait? At this point I’m not willing to believe that the elephant came up with the portrait spontaneously. [/QUOTE] They receive “positive behavioral training”, and you’ll notice [here](http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/splash.php) that each elephant paints the same basic theme over and over. [Hong](http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=69) is the elephant in the video, and as you can see, his painting for sale is **almost** the same as the painting in the video. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/12 "2008-03-27T13:29:38Z")
I’m not impressed. That’s pretty lousy painting. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/13 "2008-03-27T13:55:25Z")
[QUOTE=atomicbadgerrace] [BBC article from almost 2 years ago](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/5203120.stm) on elephants painting self-portraits. I can believe it. If that video is legit, then wow. Where the hell do I buy an elephant? [/QUOTE] Did you read the article to the end? > [@](#): > > The Oslo-based scientist said: "I have seen elephants painting, but it was very free-flow. > > “It’s certainly capable of drawing an elephant, and could be trained, but might not really understand what it was doing.” I’ll vote for not really understanding what it was doing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Shroud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/439d5e/32.png) [@The\_Shroud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Shroud)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/14 "2008-03-27T13:57:49Z")
[QUOTE=DMC] [Hong](http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=69) is the elephant in the video, and as you can see, his painting for sale is **almost** the same as the painting in the video. [/QUOTE] From that link: > [@](#): > > Just for clarification, with these realistic figural works, the elephant is still the only one making the marks on the paper but the paintings are learned series of brushstrokes not Hong painting a still life on her own. Not as fun as thinking the elephant has an imagination, but still, pretty neat trick. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/15 "2008-03-27T14:02:38Z")
“How well the dog can dance is not so remarkable as the fact that the dog can dance at all.” s/dog/elephant/g s/dance/paint/g ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/16 "2008-03-27T14:04:12Z")
Do you guys really think a lot of HUMAN ADULT “artists” aren’t doing the same thing? 😃 Seriously, I taught classes at a senior center where the little old ladies chewed my ass because I wouldn’t reduce making art to a Step 1-Step 2-Step 3 process. That’s what they were used to, it’s what they wanted; a clear process leading to a predictable outcome. Go look at the art magazine section at Borders sometime. [Donna Dewberry](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyi-Y2ATjoA) has it down to “One Stroke”. [Bob Ross](http://www.privatelessons.net/art_joy.asp) (on PBS) does the same thing. Or, rather, did, since he’s deceased (which is somehow not mentioned on that website). Lousy paintings, but I _love_ his voice. Shoot, at least the elephant doesn’t know any better - people ought to (or at least they could). ---
**Author:** ![Giant\_Hairy\_Nevus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/848f3c/32.png) [@Giant\_Hairy\_Nevus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giant_Hairy_Nevus)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/17 "2008-03-27T14:09:08Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] Check out all the other Youtubeclips and semi-documentaries on this phenomenon on the Web then. I believe it. [/QUOTE] Not all the other clips on the whole web, though I’ve checked the first few couple of hits from a youtube search for “painting elephant”. There wasn’t a single one where [ol][li]the camera did not closely zoom in on the more sophisticated movements[/li][li]a trainer does not stand right behind the elephant’s ear, always on the opposite side from the camera[/li][li]the elephant is visible as a whole but doesn’t do anything except holding the brush with a rather confused look or just standing around doing elephant things[/li][li]or when unmistakingly independent movements are shown, they are simplistic sliding motions or repeated splotches that clearly lack the artistic refinement as exhibited in the kind of scenes described above[/ol][/li]So yes, elephants are intelligent and sentient beings that deserve our respect. And they play around with paintbrushes (free play is considered a sign of intelligence), sometimes with artistic results. Like [this](http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=781) or [this](http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=779) or even [this](http://www.elephantart.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=785) after learning the motions. I’ve no trouble to believe this. But assuming an elephant creates an abstract image of another elephant, by its own intelligence and by its own free will? That’s a stretch, isn’t it. Wait…? > [@](#): > > Medium: acrylic on elephant dung paper I think that’s one thing I _didn’t_ need to know… ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/18 "2008-03-27T14:09:13Z")
First [the dancing walrus](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=461252) and now the painting elephant? My dog is looking less impressive every day! ---
**Author:** ![Chez\_Guevara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/aeb1de/32.png) [@Chez\_Guevara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chez_Guevara)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/19 "2008-03-27T15:30:00Z")
[QUOTE=Jackmannii] I’m not impressed. That’s pretty lousy painting. [/QUOTE] It’s actually a fine example of contemporary Fauvism. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893/20 "2008-03-27T15:31:53Z")
[QUOTE=psychonaut] I’m skeptical. I don’t believe the video was faked, but I do believe it would be possible to train or direct an elephant to paint. I’ve seen a chicken play the piano, so why shouldn’t an elephant, with its much more sophisticated brain and precisely controllable trunk, be able to be trained how to paint a portrait? At this point I’m not willing to believe that the elephant came up with the portrait spontaneously. [/QUOTE] That’s obviously what’s happening. [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oYYXfM1Jw0&feature=related) another clip of the same elephant with the same trainer painting the same picture using more or less the same sequence of strokes, handing the brush to the trainer at the same points in the sequence. Only, in this one, you can see what happens when the elephant knows it’s at the end of the routine, and goes immediately to get a reward of some food. It isn’t a self-portrait any more than a picture of doggy would be. From the BBC of two years ago: [QUOTE=BBC] Elephant expert Dr Joyce Poole, who has studied the animals for 30 years, said she owned an elephant painting but had not come across animals painting their own images. The Oslo-based scientist said: "I have seen elephants painting, but it was very free-flow. “It’s certainly capable of drawing an elephant, and could be trained, but might not really understand what it was doing.” [/QUOTE] It’s still amazing how dexterous an elephant’s trunk is. Since they can’t use the elephants for logging now, they have a bunch of them in this reserve, with nothing to do, so they train them to do tricks for tourists, including painting. It’s a clever idea for making money. They probably charge a lot for those paintings. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-about-this-elephant-painting-a-self-portrait/442893.md?page=2)