# So what are the anti-vaccination people saying now that their evidence has turned to fraudulent poo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2010, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541 "2010-02-11T08:53:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/61 "2010-02-22T04:16:04Z")
Now we know the answer to the OP’s question: “…what are the anti-vaccination people saying now that their evidence has turned to fraudulent poo?” They’ll just generate more poo. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/62 "2010-02-22T04:55:31Z")
You cannot possibly quote a website like whale to – a site filled with nonsense like this: > [@](#): > > [http://www.whale.to/b/chemtrails.html](http://www.whale.to/b/chemtrails.html) > > [Covert genocide, looks like the Global Warming Lie is a cover story. Or this: > [@](#): > > [DEATH TOWERS](http://www.whale.to/a/electrical_h.html) > > [Cell phone (also Tetra & Power) towers are safe is a well proven lie (1, 2) (so they know) to go with numerous other long standing lies where the truth has been suppressed, such as the 200 year old vaccine one (see), while the towers have been placed as if they were as safe as small trees, often deliberately right next to schools (see) when safer placements are easily available. Their main function appears to be the spread of DOR, part of the Covert genocide agenda. and claim any credibility on this subject whatsoever. How can you possibly compare a widely admired infectious diseases specialist with lunatics like these? :rolleyes: The HiB vaccine was not introduced until the 1990’s and subsequently reduced the incidence of bacterial meningitis by a huge margin. Does anyone really think we’ve become magically cleaner in twenty years? FYI, my own daughter had many of the same symptoms **Interested Observer** talks about in her son after DTaP vaccination. So what? A vaccine reaction is not uncommon nor are most of them serious. The only real sane reaction should your baby have a bad vaccine reaction is consult with your pediatrician. If the ped says no more vaccines the only non-idiotic step is to urge everyone else to vaccinate their babies so yours has reduced risk of vaccine preventable diseases. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/63 "2010-02-22T04:55:50Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > And those who got a polio vax prior to ‘62 or so also got hit hard with a high probability of being infected SV40, a known cancer causing simian virus contaminating the vaccine as a result of it being cultured on infected monkey tissues. > > [http://www.sv40foundation.org/](http://www.sv40foundation.org/) [Studies Find No Evidence That SV40 is Related to Human Cancer](http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/pressreleases/SV40) [Cancer Incidence in Denmark Following Exposure to Poliovirus Vaccine Contaminated With Simian Virus 40](http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/95/7/532) > [@](#): > > _Conclusion_: Exposure to SV40-contaminated poliovirus vaccine in Denmark was not associated with increased cancer incidence. I reviewed the scientific articles on the foundation cite, but couldn’t find any whose data supported a causal link. They seemed either to indicate that SV40 (or a similar sequence) is present in tumors, or that further investigation is needed. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/64 "2010-02-22T04:57:39Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Better iron lung technology. Wooo. > > See, there’s no end to it. > > My Uncle John - the guy who’s fallen for eveyr pyramid scheme ever concocted - is now spreading anti-vaccination bullshit on Facebook. There’s no end to it. The world is full of fools. Worse. Contagious fools. Thank you anti-vaxxers: > [@](#): > > [CDC: Measles outbreak linked to lack of vaccinations - CNN.com](http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/05/01/measles.outbreak/index.html) > > Sixty-four cases of measles have been diagnosed in the United States this year, the most in seven years, according to the Center for Disease Control and Prevention. > > In all but one of the cases, the people who contracted measles had not been vaccinated. Some were too young to have gotten the shots, which are administered from 12 to 15 months of age. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/65 "2010-02-22T05:47:11Z")
Is it wrong to say that people who are too stupid to vaccinate their offspring might help the gene pool by losing them in childhood? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/66 "2010-02-22T05:49:19Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > TF? You demand cites and when I give them you cry foul (“OMG, too much GLURGE…I am so overwhelmed, I simply cannot respond with anything other than general attacks and denials!!!” ) I responded factually to some of the major antivax ignorance you presented - the inane “hygiene and better food eliminated vaccine-preventable diseases” argument and the equally ignorant accompanying claim that such diseases were disappearing before vaccines were introduced. I don’t see you acknowledging your errors in this regard. What you’ve done is post a bunch of irrelevant and downright false information in an attempt to show that vaccines are bad and unnecessary. Spewing out this sort of crap is known as a [“Gish gallop”](http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Gish_gallop) for good reason. _“the Gish Gallop is an informal name for a rhetorical technique in debates that involves drowning the opponent in half-truths, lies, straw men, and bullshit to such a degree that the opponent cannot possibly answer every falsehood that has been raised”_ Instead of resorting to this shopworn technique, take your own advice, “Buck up and do…research”. Present a coherent argument with evidence that directly addresses the points you’re trying to make. The typical antivaxer uses biased and unreliable sites like NVIC, but in my experience it’s only hardcore loons that reference whale.to. If you desire even a shred of credibility (it’s probably too late for that), go elsewhere for your flood of quotes and irrelevant studies. Interesting to see that, having praised “hygiene” for supposedly eliminating or drastically reducing vaccine-preventable diseases, you’ve suddenly recognized that polio doesn’t fall into that category. Rather than acknowledge vaccination for having eliminated that scourge in developed nations, you’ve apparently decided that can be overlooked because of the SV40 myth (which I see another poster has exploded). > [@](#): > > Oh my, you cite Ofiit….do you not realize he is as unreliable and extreme a source as Whale to whale? Paul Offit is a distinguished researcher, an inventor of a rotavirus vaccine, and a respected expert on vaccine efficacy and safety. Antivaxers hate him because he is an effective counterweight to their idiocy (he is the author of the recently published “Autism’s False Prophets”, a devastating expose of antivax ideology, which goes into Wakefield’s activities as well. He has designated the profits from this book to go to autism research). Comparing him to the nutbags on whale.to shows how far outside even the antivax mainstream you are. > [@](#): > > …I am off to write papers for and attend my classes and live my life. It must be quite a busy life, what with all these conspiracies you are intent on revealing. What other horrific government/industry plots are you working to foil? The Aspartame Conspiracy? Chemtrails? Enlighten us. And when you and your family get sick, what remedies do you use? Whale.to has some terrific ones you should look into (if you’re not already taking them) - colloidal silver, “urine therapy”, homeopathy, ultraviolet blood irradiation (now _there’s_ nature at its finest), etc. And for general well-being, don’t get caught without your orgonite, order whale.to’s [“Holy Hand Grenades”](http://www.whale.to/orgone.html)\*. \*You can’t make up this stuff. Well, lots of stuff on that site is made up, but jeez, these people are _serious_. > [@Cat Whisperer](#): > > Is it wrong to say that people who are too stupid to vaccinate their offspring might help the gene pool by losing them in childhood? It’s tempting to think so, but their kids don’t deserve to suffer for the foolishness of their parents, nor should we or our children pay the price for the diminishing of herd immunity that results from the activities of antivaxers. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/67 "2010-02-22T07:20:35Z")
In my [research about the H1N1 vaccine,](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=551799) I saw many Google results with URLs that implied “vaccine truth” or naturalistic medicine websites trumpeting the case of a 14 year old who got Gulliane-Barre Syndrome hours after getting the H1N1 vaccine. I wonder how many mentioned the fact that you can also get GBS from the flu, and that it’s actually a lot more likely with said flu? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/68 "2010-02-22T13:34:18Z")
Another wrinkle in the Wakefield affair - a high-powered British public relations firm appears to have had second thoughts about taking on Wakefield as a client. Brian Deer has [more](http://briandeer.com/solved/max-clifford.htm). \*"Observers say that the doctor may now be the victim of a domino effect, which threatens to see him lose his fellowship of the UK’s Royal College of Pathologists, which he obtained in 2001 on the basis of a submission of his publications, and even potentially spark the collapse of a new celebrity-led American anti-vaccine movement. In recent weeks, dozens of American newspapers, including The New York Times, The San Francisco Chronicle and the Los Angeles Times have published editorials condemning his conduct. “Hippocrates would puke,” the New York Daily News headlined its opinion of Wakefield two weeks ago. “Doctor hoaxed parents into denying kids vaccine.” The turnaround in his fortunes marks the climax of a Sunday Times investigation, which, in a series of revelations since February 2004, triggered the GMC inquiry, the Lancet’s belated retraction, and what appears to be Wakefield’s professional ruin."\* Wakefield is also trying to obtain an indefinite delay in a press complaint he filed against Deer. Apparently he doesn’t need any more of his dominos toppling right now. I doubt we’ll see Wakefield fall out of the antivax spotlight entirely. His role-playing as brave maverick doctor martyr is made to order for one of the antivax autism advocacy groups (or as director of some quack clinic), as noted [here](http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/02/andrew_wakefield_destined_for_even_more.php). ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/69 "2010-02-22T18:34:08Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > \It’s tempting to think so, but their kids don’t deserve to suffer for the foolishness of their parents, nor should we or our children pay the price for the diminishing of herd immunity that results from the activities of antivaxers. I suppose. Darn you and your compassionate logic! ---
**Author:** ![spazattak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8e8cbc/32.png) [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/70 "2010-02-22T19:20:17Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > There have been huge, well funded studies and the connection simply isn’t there. Even if we didn’t understand the mechanism, we could still see that vaccinated people develop autism at a higher rate than unvaccinated people, and that has not been the case, despite extensive study. There’s also the false notion that autism rates are skyrocketing, but that’s actually just the result of more aggressive diagnosis, and a larger array of disorders being grouped under the category of autism spectrum disorders. There was a study released a few months back that compared the autism rates currently with historical autism rates had you adjusted their criteria for what we now group under autism spectrum disorders. If autism actually were on the rise, you would expect more young people to have autistic spectrum disorders than older people, but when you adjust the criteria so that they’re on a level playing field there is not. > > Quite simply - there is no link. If there was, even if we didn’t understand it, it would be evident from an easy statistical study. Do you happen to have a link to or title of that study on historically-corrected diagnosis of autism? I’d love to see it. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2010, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/71 "2010-02-22T23:22:33Z")
I may have described it incorrectly as people retroactively analysing historical data. What they actually did was a current survey of mental disorders, and so you can analyze the demographics of people who currently have autism. My conclusion was correct, though. Here’s the [NHS page](http://www.nhs.uk/news/2009/09September/Pages/MMR-jab-autism-rates.aspx) about it. The data comes from the [Adult Psychiatric Morbidity in England](http://www.ic.nhs.uk/pubs/psychiatricmorbidity07) study, specifically [this](http://www.ic.nhs.uk/statistics-and-data-collections/mental-health/mental-health-surveys/autism-spectrum-disorders-in-adults-living-in-households-throughout-england--report-from-the-adult-psychiatric-morbidity-survey-2007). They applied the modern definition for an autistic spectrum disorder to a national cross section of the population, and found that the rate of diagnosable autism spectrum disorders is the same for all age groups. If there truly were a recent explosion in autism rates as the conspiracy theorists/antivaxers suggest, you’d have more young people with autism. But no, the issue is that now autism is more widely diagnosed, because doctors look for it more, and because we’ve broadened the definition of what qualifies as an autism spectrum disorder. So the actual rate of diagnosis is higher, but it’s not due to an actual increase in the incidence of autism. ---
**Author:** ![Keweenaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Keweenaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keweenaw)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2010, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541/72 "2010-02-23T01:45:06Z")
[From the CDC](http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/features/counting-autism.html) > [@](#): > > No single factor explains the changes in identified ASD prevalence over the time period studied. Although some of the increases are due to better detection, a true increase in risk can not be ruled out. [UC Davis M.I.N.D. Institute study shows California’s autism increase not due to better counting, diagnosis](http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/welcome/features/20090218_autism_environment/index.html) I don’t think that it’s been truly determined yet if the incidence rate is solely from from criteria changes, or a true incidence increase. Regardless it’s serious problem for which people need solutions and help. Concerning the consequences of the Wakefield debacle, I posted the following in another thread. > [@12 Years and who knows how many sickened, Lancet fully recants...](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/12-years-and-who-knows-how-many-sickened-lancet-fully-recants/527411/62): > > There is also the likelihood now that years of on-going autism research will be set back significantly. The paper led others to make the wrong assumptions and fund research that could have been better spent in another area of autism research. It’s tragic that families who have suffered with children with austism have had their passion for a cure mislead by bad science. I think autism activism in principal is noble and necessary. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-are-the-anti-vaccination-people-saying-now-that-their-evidence-has-turned-to-fraudulent-poo/528541.md?page=3)