# So, what do people think about the health care address? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2009, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519 "2009-09-10T04:33:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/81 "2009-09-10T22:36:43Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Why do conservatives keep yammering about a government takeover of healthcare? There’s no way single-payer would pass anything, let alone Congress as a whole, and the public option isn’t a government takeover. > Here’s an idea: argue from what can actually be proven, instead of things that you “know”. Well, we can’t “know” what is in a bill who’s contents are still in flux, but I would bet you a large sum of money that any “public” option will not be required to pay for itself out of proceeds from people “choosing” it. It will be subsidized out of the general fund, and therefore it can be made cheaper to the consumer than what private companies can offer. At that point, it is going to grow and grow and grow, and the endpoint is that private insurance will be driven under. Takeover complete. It’s what the libs want, and it’s likely what they’ll get, seeing as they control the presidency and the congress. Of course the total cost will be more, probably drastically more, but never mind, the taxpayer can pick up that tab. This is what we are afraid of, and oppose. Again, write the law so that the public option must pay it’s own way, and I have no problem with that. But it won’t be. Care to bet? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/82 "2009-09-10T22:40:59Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > If government health care was paid for voluntarily, and the government had to **compete** for hearts and wallets, your argument might make a lick of sense! It’s not my argument. I make no such claim about private enterprise. It’s something libertarians say. > [@](#): > > This is typical of the way liberals argue. When they know they are wrong, I’m not wrong. You say fair competition will not be possible, and I say “so what?” Pointing out that your claims in this thread are inconsistent with Approved Libertarian Thought is not germane to my point of view. Your refinements don’t change this. > [@](#): > > Want a public option? Got one, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/83 "2009-09-10T22:44:20Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Well, we can’t “know” what is in a bill who’s contents are still in flux, but I would bet you a large sum of money that any “public” option will not be required to pay for itself out of proceeds from people “choosing” it. It will be subsidized out of the general fund, and therefore it can be made cheaper to the consumer than what private companies can offer. At that point, it is going to grow and grow and grow, and the endpoint is that private insurance will be driven under. Takeover complete. You’re aware that private insurance companies exist in countries with actual single-payer systems, right? Something far weaker and less effective than single-payer can hardly accomplish what single-payer doesn’t. Also, Obama _explicitly_ said that the public option would be paid for by premiums from subscribers, so either admit that you’re calling him a liar or retract the claim. So you basically have no evidence for what you’re saying at all. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/84 "2009-09-10T22:46:54Z")
Nice post, **Weston**. Note that requiring the public option to pay it’s way would be a good way to keep it from becoming the only “option”. Won’t happen. And a lot of this is nothing more than a sop to the real constituents of the Democrats, Big Labor. They are licking their chops over this one. The more of the economy they can governmentalize, the easier they can line their member’s pockets. Government is a poor negotiator with labor, because they are in freaking bed together. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/85 "2009-09-10T22:52:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > You’re aware that private insurance companies exist in countries with actual single-payer systems, right? Something far weaker and less effective than single-payer can hardly accomplish what single-payer doesn’t. Also, Obama _explicitly_ said that the public option would be paid for by premiums from subscribers, so either admit that you’re calling him a liar or retract the claim. > > So you basically have no evidence for what you’re saying at all. I am calling him a liar. Even if the bill that is passed contains that wording, when the public option starts running at a deficit, as it certainly will before long, it will be bailed out. Perhaps the measure will be called an “emergency”, but it will soon become permanent. This is the nose of the camel coming into the tent. Once they get the nose in, the rest of the camel is sure to follow. Why can’t we limit the government to a simple charitable role of helping the indigent. I wouldn’t have a problem with that. We do it to a large extent already through the public hospital system. What is wrong with building on that and improving it, and leaving the rest alone? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/86 "2009-09-10T22:59:27Z")
So you have no actual _grounds_ for calling him a liar, you just think that if the public option is, in fact, implemented in 2013, it will do horribly and be bailed out, without any evidence whatsoever for either assertion. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/87 "2009-09-10T23:02:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > So you have no actual _grounds_ for calling him a liar, you just think that if the public option is, in fact, implemented in 2013, it will do horribly and be bailed out, without any evidence whatsoever for either assertion. Got it. I don’t have any evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow, either, but it’s a pretty fair bet, based on lots of past observation. Maybe Amtrak will start turning a profit next year, but I wouldn’t lay odds on that… ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/88 "2009-09-10T23:07:11Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Obama _explicitly_ said that the public option would be paid for by premiums from subscribers, so either admit that you’re calling him a liar or retract the claim. Obama also promised that new legislation would be posted to the White House website 48 hours before it comes up for a vote and several other things that have since fallen by the wayside. He also said during the campaign that he would not support fines for no coverage, and yet he has been curiously silent about it since Baucus proposed just that. Obama is lying to us in a sense. He’s making bold claims and false assurances about certain elements of the proposed government health care plan that he can’t possibly know for a fact will be the case once the bill emerges from Congress. NOBODY knows at this point what will be in the bill, so anybody who makes concrete claims about what will or won’t be in it, and/or how people will be affected by it, is simply pulling those claims out of their ass. Why don’t they get the bill finalized and then present it to the public to see if it flies? As it is, they look like they’re making tons of false promises in order to gain support for a bill that they know wouldn’t fly if the public knew what it would really contain. And of course none of this speaks to what the government program would eventually morph into, just like no one at the time knew what the Social Security program would eventually morph into or what the Medicare/Medicaid programs would eventually morph into. Has it not occurred to everyone here that the primary reason the government is having such difficulty getting this thing passed is because of its own dismal record in creating and administering government social programs in the past? Most people in this country know how inept and poorly funded and beaurocratic government anything is, and they are understandably very reluctant to place their health care in the hands of that very same government. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/89 "2009-09-10T23:14:40Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And of course none of this speaks to what the government program would eventually morph into, just like no one at the time knew what the Social Security program would eventually morph into It was always a regressive tax (bad) linked rhetorically to a regressive benefit (bad). Individually they would never hold water. Poor people pay more in as a percent of income, and rich people get benefits they scarcely need. But never mind, it’s Social Security! It’s Good! (somehow) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/90 "2009-09-10T23:25:53Z")
Yup! As Phil McGraw has so accurately said, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior…and based on its behavior in creating and administering (and raiding) social programs in the past, I want nothing to do with a government-run health care system. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/91 "2009-09-10T23:36:14Z")
Amazing. Obama can’t possibly know enough about what might happen to make promises, but you guys know enough to make dire predictions. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/92 "2009-09-10T23:36:49Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Obama also promised that new legislation would be posted to the White House website 48 hours before it comes up for a vote and several other things that have since fallen by the wayside. He also said during the campaign that he would not support fines for no coverage, and yet he has been curiously silent about it since Baucus proposed just that. > > Obama is lying to us in a sense. He’s making bold claims and false assurances about certain elements of the proposed government health care plan that he can’t possibly know for a fact will be the case once the bill emerges from Congress. NOBODY knows at this point what will be in the bill, so anybody who makes concrete claims about what will or won’t be in it, and/or how people will be affected by it, is simply pulling those claims out of their ass. > > Why don’t they get the bill finalized and then present it to the public to see if it flies? As it is, they look like they’re making tons of false promises in order to gain support for a bill that they know wouldn’t fly if the public knew what it would really contain. > > And of course none of this speaks to what the government program would eventually morph into, just like no one at the time knew what the Social Security program would eventually morph into or what the Medicare/Medicaid programs would eventually morph into. > > Has it not occurred to everyone here that the primary reason the government is having such difficulty getting this thing passed is because of its own dismal record in creating and administering government social programs in the past? Most people in this country know how inept and poorly funded and beaurocratic government anything is, and they are understandably very reluctant to place their health care in the hands of that very same government. Not lying at all. He has to sign it for it to become law. If he says what he needs in the bill for him to sign it, they will likely use that for a guide. He can veto a bill ,you know. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/93 "2009-09-10T23:46:52Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Not lying at all. He has to sign it for it to become law. If he says what he needs in the bill for him to sign it, they will likely use that for a guide. He can veto a bill ,you know. Yeah, but will he? So far he seems content just letting Congress take the lead and seems willing to go along with whatever they come up with. Plus, like I said he’s reneged on several promises already. How are we to know he won’t renege on these too? Still and all, these concerns are rather minor. The real problem is what will become of a government health care system once it’s in place? Based on previous government social programs, I foresee long waits and beaurocratic red tape; minimal care due to underfunding; and a population even more indoctrinated to look to Big Daddy government to provide for them and tell them what they can and cannot have. ---
**Author:** ![davidw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@davidw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidw)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/94 "2009-09-10T23:48:58Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > I am calling him a liar. Even if the bill that is passed contains that wording, when the public option starts running at a deficit, as it certainly will before long, it will be bailed out. Perhaps the measure will be called an “emergency”, but it will soon become permanent. So the public option will do so poorly that it will need to be bailed out, yet it will also do so well as to drive private insurance companies out of business? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/95 "2009-09-11T00:15:45Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Yeah, but will he? So far he seems content just letting Congress take the lead and seems willing to go along with whatever they come up with. > > Plus, like I said he’s reneged on several promises already. How are we to know he won’t renege on these too? > > Still and all, these concerns are rather minor. The real problem is what will become of a government health care system once it’s in place? Based on previous government social programs, I foresee long waits and beaurocratic red tape; minimal care due to underfunding; and a population even more indoctrinated to look to Big Daddy government to provide for them and tell them what they can and cannot have. You should learn how bills are made. The house has to decide on one. Then the Senate. Then they hammer out a compromise. Then the president can sign or veto. Now is when the bills get ruined. The lobbyists are out in full force protecting their financial interests. When Bush was in power ,the lobbyists were allowed to write the bills themselves. They are spending out 1.4 million dollars a day fighting health care changes. Why do you think waiting times are good in America? I have to make appointments more than a month in advance. If you need a specialist ,you first go to your GP. Then you get to make an appointment with them. The process takes months. The big mother insurance companies are telling you what you can do now. They are motivated for profit. Can you figure out that they make more money by rejecting your procedures? Can you see that if you become ill, they can dump you and make money? Can you understand that is fundamentally wrong? ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/96 "2009-09-11T00:38:39Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > First of all, I’m far from convinced we have the 37th best health care system in the world. All one has to do is look around here to see how one’s opinion of the health care system is skewed according to political ideology. Before I would accept that we are anywhere close to 37th, I’d have to become convinced that the finding was objective and comprehensive and free from some sort of political agenda. > > Secondly, insurance companies have raised rates, not out of greed, but because the technology that has been developed which is so effective at diagnosing and treating illness is expensive and becoming more so with each new advance. That’s a beautiful contortion you did there, **Starving Artist**. In the first paragraph, you say that a number (which has been cited in this thread and elsewhere; it’s from the World Health Organization) can’t possibly be right, at least not until you finish your white paper on the subject. In the _very next paragraph_, you declare as truth something that not only has no proof, but quite possibly cannot even _be_ proven. (What would that survey look like? “Why have you insurance companies raised rates? (a) People are fatasses and therefore more expensive to treat, (b) Technology is better and therefore more expensive, (c) Greed, (d) Compact with Devil?”) So you go from “I demand exhaustive proof!” to “Here’s something I said; it’s true” in 2.8 seconds. That might be some sort of record… > [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Or to take another example, Amtrak. Little known fact: it is ILLEGAL to operate passenger trains that compete with Amtrak, or even ones on routes that don’t compete with Amtrak. Someone wanted to operate private passneger service, down in Florida, I believe, on a route Amtrak doesn’t even service, and the feds told them no, you can not do that. We might want to operate trains there someday, so you cannot compete with us, even if we don’t currently serve that market. This is how the government acts, like a bully, that wants everything for itself, and beyond that, it wants nobody to have things it doesn’t even want! Why should we believe they won’t tend to act that way in the realm of health care? That’s odd. I’m not saying you’re wrong; I’m saying it’s odd, because I’ve ridden on trains many times in my life in this country, and they weren’t always Amtrak. So perhaps it’s not as ironclad as you make it sound. But nevertheless, as Obama stated last night, we have both private and public universities, and I see no evidence that the latter are interested in shutting down the former. (Sure, they compete, but not at gunpoint :rolleyes:). Would you be willing to take the peaceful coexistence of, say, Princeton and Rutgers as a point of evidence that, actually, government doesn’t ALWAYS muscle out the private sector? > [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > The federal government is not benevolent. It will always act in its own best intersest, and when its best interest collides with yours, guess who wins? I’m going to make a slight tweak to your quote, **SA** ; tell me if you (a) agree with it and (b) if the new sentence is better or worse than your original. Here’s my new sentence: “Private industry is not benevolent. It will always act in its own best interest, and when its best interest collides with yours, guess who wins?” Thoughts? > [@Weston](#): > > I suspect that Obama is massively overestimating the amount he will be able to save by improving efficiency within the health care system. I agree. And I’d like to believe that, when Obama comes up short, he actually will implement some spending cuts, but I’m sure he’ll kick the can further along, just like every other politician ever. I guess I disagree with you when I say that if he can’t come up with every red cent to pay for his plan, that’s OK by me, because the system sucks and has to change. > [@](#): > > _Some_ people are. Not everyone who is worried about health care reform is a mouthbreathing, townhall crashing, Beckbot. Some people, I would go so far as to say the majority of people, are worried about health care reform because they’re happy with what they’ve got and don’t understand how the President’s plans will affect their coverage or their taxes. That’s Obama’s fault. Sure, people fear change. I don’t quite see how that’s Obama’s fault, given that people have feared change, since about the time Ug stepped out of his cave then ran screaming back inside of it. > [@](#): > > But there are also plenty of people who are hungry for details because they’re worried about the deficit and common sense tells them that the President’s health care goals are mutually exclusive. I like you, and I’d like to believe that there are lots of people like you – wary of health care reform but willing to educate themselves. But I just don’t see it. It’s a little tricky, because there’s not a single bill that is THE bill. But once THE bill exists, my guess is that you won’t see a whole lot of, “Hmm, I think this should be 5% instead of 7.2%” or “Shouldn’t we raise that exemption from 20 to 25?” Instead, you’ll have Betsy McCaughey (sp) and Sarah Palin and Michael Steele saying, “THE bill says that the government will have the right to force feed you vitamins!” when in reality THE bill will say, “Vitamins are good.” > [@](#): > > I’ve seen a great many more people, people like Krauthammer, Kristol, Barnes, Hume, and others asking over and over again _“Just how in the world does he intend to pay for all of this?”_ That’s what conservatives ALWAYS ask – as long as there’s a Democrat in the White House. If you watch Fox News (I can’t stomach it for more than two or three minutes at a time), I’ll ask you: How often did these talking heads ask this question when the expenditure was The Iraq War or Another Giant Tax Cut? To put it another way, I find their concern disingenuous. Not that you can’t be right – the question should be answered – but these people aren’t interested in an answer. They just love the question, so if you’re listening to them for an answer, you’ll always be disappointed. > [@](#): > > This is a question which _demands_ a precise answer, replete with cost estimates, long and short term projections, fundraising plans, proposed cuts and further details on the ramifications of those cuts. In light of the supernatural message discipline they displayed on the campaign trail, it baffles me that Team Obama has yet to provide the facts and figures reasonable working Americans are demanding. Yesterday’s speech still leaves a ton of unanswered questions and frankly, it just leads me to suspect they’re hiding something. Doesn’t the Congressional Budget Office always do just that? (They “score” the bill.) I know the CBO has had a crack at some of the proposals thus far; I presume they’ll do the same for THE bill. Can you keep an open mind about the cost until then? > [@](#): > > Obama has said, forcefully and repeatedly, _“If you like your plan, you can keep it!”_. What if you prefer the private plan provided by your employer to the public option, but your employer switches to Obamacare to save money for himself? Voila! Your plan has been swapped for an inferior (for you) alternative and, unless you’re prepared to quit your job, there’s nothing you can do about it. What, if any, mechanisms has President Obama proposed to stop this from happening? How much will they cost and what effect will they have on private insurers? I’m not sure why Obama would get the blame for that instead of the employer. Honestly – and you might not like that answer – if an employer tries to screw over its employees by choosing an inferior health plan (which can happen TODAY, absent the government option), I guess your options include taking it up with management, quitting, going on strike, buying your own private insurance plan, etc. And I’m sure if he made it illegal for employers to do this, there’d be endless cries of “Let the market dictate!” It’s no win for him, really. Obama is not creating the problem of employers screwing over their employees vis a vis health insurance. Exacerbating it? Maybe. But still, why wouldn’t you get mad at the employer? > [@](#): > > You’re right that it’s silly to expect Obama to break out Powerpoint during a congressional address, but maybe he wouldn’t have needed to give one if he’d broken it out a little earlier. Agree to disagree, I guess. Presidents are big picture guys, by design. I’m not sure when the appropriate forum for PowerPoints by the big guy would ever be. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/97 "2009-09-11T00:48:48Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > You should learn how bills are made. The house has to decide on one. Then the Senate. Then they hammer out a compromise. Then the president can sign or veto. Now is when the bills get ruined. > The lobbyists are out in full force protecting their financial interests. When Bush was in power ,the lobbyists were allowed to write the bills themselves. They are spending out 1.4 million dollars a day fighting health care changes. > Why do you think waiting times are good in America? I have to make appointments more than a month in advance. If you need a specialist ,you first go to your GP. Then you get to make an appointment with them. The process takes months. > The big mother insurance companies are telling you what you can do now. They are motivated for profit. Can you figure out that they make more money by rejecting your procedures? Can you see that if you become ill, they can dump you and make money? Can you understand that is fundamentally wrong? Look, let’s get off this evil insurance company meme, shall we? As I’ve said before, if insurance company malfeasance is the problem then institute legislation and serious penalties to bring them in line. But as I’ve said also, insurance company wrongdoing isn’t the primary motivation behind the push for government health care. It’s merely a convenient stalking horse to achieve what the left always wants to achieve, which is more and more government control over our lives. You guys love to govern because it’s the only way you can get people to do what you want. It would be fine with you guys if the government ran everything. That way nobody could have more than someone else and no companies would be making (gasp) _profits_ and everything would be ‘free’! The only problem with that type of government is that it has failed every time it has been tried, and it requires totalitarianship and more murders than we have people dying in the streets from lack of health care by many orders of magnitude. And yes, bills are created like you said. That’s my point. Nobody knows what the end result will be so no one can say what it will or won’t contain. Therefore people who are telling you not to be concerned over this aspect or that, or that the bill won’t contain this provision or that, are making phony assurances and talking out of their ass. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/98 "2009-09-11T00:57:55Z")
Youi mean, like people who are making dire predictions, who knows as little or less than we? > [@](#): > > …and it requires totalitarianship and more murders than we have people dying in the streets from lack of health care by many orders of magnitude… They’ve called about your high school English teacher. She is standing on a ledge threatening to jump. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/99 "2009-09-11T00:58:28Z")
> [@Stan\_Shmenge](#): > > Well, if it’s true that the industry has a margin of 3%, I am sure even you would agree that it is not obscene. If that’s true and how that’s true. Are people losing and/or being denied health care to increase execs salaries and bonuses? To pay for inflated overhead? Simply put, 3% is not an obscene profit margin but there are plenty of other considerations. Admittedly, the problem isn’t just insurance companies. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519/100 "2009-09-11T01:02:50Z")
The question isn’t the profit margin, the question is how that profit is obtained. I see abundant evidence that it is done badly, and unless and until that evidence is addressed and refuted, then so far as I can see those companies who engage in those policies and practices should not be permitted to exist, much less prosper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-people-think-about-the-health-care-address/509519.md?page=6)