# So, What Do Sportscasters Mean by "Athletic"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 3, 2006, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057 "2006-04-03T13:02:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/21 "2006-04-03T18:59:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I would think that most racists would avoid covering sports, actually, considering how diverse they are and how many black players there are. This doesn’t follow, to me. I’m willing to bet a lot of money that there are plenty racist sports fans out there. Understanding that, why _wouldn’t_ some of these people go into sports journalism? > [@](#): > > But there are many unspoken racial issues in sports (and everywhere else), and those issues inform the way sports are covered. So when a black athlete is the topic, you’re more likely to read about his physical prowess and leaping ability, while coverage of a white athlete is more likely to be about how he “plays the game the right way” and “plays smart” and “hard” and “with heart.” It’s rarely, if ever, a conscious choice, but it’s often unexamined. It’s probably a case of old euphemisms becoming internalized. Just because a particular bias is unconscious doesn’t mean it can’t be racist. In fact, most of the time racist biases are _unconscious_. That’s why are they are so hard to get rid of. And uncomfortable to discuss. If a reporter sees “smart and adept and cunning” when observing a white athelete and thinks “brute strength and powerful and dominating” whenever a black athelete is performing, I don’t know what other term better describes the disparity in treatment than racist. Venus and Serena are prime examples of the press’s overapplication of the word “athleticism”. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/22 "2006-04-03T19:09:41Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > There is a little bit of code language, but what I don’t understand why it is viewed as a slight on the black athletes. If anything, it is a euphemism to protect the feelings of the white kids. > > If you say, “He has incredible athleticism and can jump out of the gym”, it is comparable to saying, “That girl is really hot and has a GREAT figure!” > > If you say, “that kid may not be athletic, but he has great fundamentals!”, you might as well be saying, “Well…she’s got a great personality…” _Cluelesser and cluelesser…_ You don’t get how claiming blacks achieve success in athletics through sheer luck of the genetic draw while whites actually work their way up to their positions might be considered offensive to black atheletes (and blacks in general)? ---
**Author:** ![Kiros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/439d5e/32.png) [@Kiros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiros)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/23 "2006-04-03T19:21:39Z")
The OP has been covered pretty well, I think. Athletic does actually mean _something_ in this case, it’s just a little more general than some might like. A couple fun things to reply to, though: > [@RickJay](#): > > A more current example; one often hears Steve Nash’s work ethic spoken of very highly (and rightly so, he works very hard) but never Allen Iverson’s, even though Iverson is short, weak, perpetually playing with a nagging injury, and yet is one of the hardest working basketball stars to ever play the game. Now, I agree with the rest of your post. I’m not sure this example works, though. Iverson’s work ethic isn’t spoken very highly of for one reason, really (and I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t replying just to get this quote in!): > [@Allen Iverson](#): > > Now I know that I’m supposed to lead by example and all that but I’m not shoving that aside like it don’t mean anything. I know it’s important, I honestly do but we’re talking about practice. We’re talking about practice man. (laughter from the media crowd) We’re talking about practice. We’re talking about practice. We’re not talking about the game. We’re talking about practice. When you come to the arena, and you see me play, you’ve seen me play right, you’ve seen me give everything I’ve got, but we’re talking about practice right now. (more laughter) > [@Allen Iverson](#): > > Reporter: “Is it possible that if you practiced, not you but you would make your teammates better?” > > Iverson: "How in the hell can I make my teammates better by practicing? > > Reporter: “So they can be used to playing with you.” > > Iverson: "They should be used to playing with me. Those are my teammates. So my game is going to deteriorate because I’m not practicing with my teammates? Is my game is going to get worse? I’m asking you, is my game going to get worse? So what about my game? Is my game going to get better because other players are hurt on my team, I mean, do that hurt me? Do you think that hurts me? I’m being honest, people are hurt on my team but do that hurt me? Does that hurt me when I go out there and play 48 minutes, does that hurt me as a player? Does that hurt me if this person is hurt or that person is hurt? Do it hurt me? (the classic news conference [transcript](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/news/2002/05/09/iverson_transcript/) ) Iverson is a great player. He does have a strong work ethic towards the game itself, and he’s undeniably one of the toughest NBA players today (or ever). He’s never going to live that particular press conference down when it comes to his overall work ethic, though. Also, regarding sports journalism: Yeah, there are some racist sports journalists out there. I don’t think the whole “athletic” thing is indicative of that, at least not 95% of the time it’s used. 'Sides, there are at LEAST as many black sports journalists (not a majority by any means, but they’re out there and they are loud) that have made their careers off of “everything in sports is racist!” stances. And these people have large audiences, all of them, or they wouldn’t still have such prominent jobs (or be so notable when they say stuff like this). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/24 "2006-04-03T19:23:47Z")
The term “athletic” used to be specifically applied a lot to black quarterbacks. The implication was that they lacked the cerebral qualities of a white quarterback but they got their jobs because of their physical skills. “Athletic” was a code word for “dumb.” I think the term has now largely lost the racist implications although I think that certain QBs like Donovon McNabb or Michael Vick mught be annoyed by it (even though Vick is nothing if not athletic). It now refers to athletes who rely more on raw physical skills than on strategy or brains. On a team level, this can actually be a meaningful distinction. Some teams rely much more on game planning, strategy and fundamentals while others have more ability to blow the doors off a team with superior physical talent. Not that some athletes can’t do both. Michael Jordan could. That’s why he was Michael Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/25 "2006-04-03T19:25:52Z")
> [@pizzabrat](#): > > _Cluelesser and cluelesser…_ > > You don’t get how claiming blacks achieve success in athletics through sheer luck of the genetic draw while whites actually work their way up to their positions might be considered offensive to black athletes (and blacks in general)? I am just being realistic. Many black ballplayers do make the league based on physical attributes alone. The NBA is littered with kids who were drafted on athletic ability and not great skills. Of course, some players have both athleticism and skills. These players become the MVPs and go to the Hall of Fame. In order for white kids to even get in the mix, they have to have those fundamentals. With a few exceptions, the white kids lack the raw physical abilities to cruise. So while, it isn’t that the white kids are better than the black kids. It’s just simply that if we are even talking about a white kid, he has to have done something spectacular in the skills department to draw our attention. So naturally, our focus is on his skills. If the typical white kid doesn’t have great skills, typically he can look forward to a job preparing the TPS Reports. He cannot coast. If a kid has raw athleticism, he can coast. There are as MORE black players with fundamental skills than whites in basketball. BUT, almost all of the whites have fundamental skills because they couldn’t make it otherwise. The white players are disproportionately skilled because they have to be. Otherwise they spent their college years folding sweaters at the Gap rather than playing D1 Basketball. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/26 "2006-04-03T19:34:55Z")
> [@Kiros](#): > > Also, regarding sports journalism: Yeah, there are some racist sports journalists out there. I don’t think the whole “athletic” thing is indicative of that, at least not 95% of the time it’s used. 'Sides, there are at LEAST as many black sports journalists (not a majority by any means, but they’re out there and they are loud) that have made their careers off of “everything in sports is racist!” stances. And these people have large audiences, all of them, or they wouldn’t still have such prominent jobs (or be so notable when they say stuff like this). Judging from the OP, I think it’s more likely that their stances are dismissed soley because it’s from a black perspective that’s less shy pointing out racism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/27 "2006-04-03T20:06:55Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > This doesn’t follow, to me. I’m willing to bet a lot of money that there are plenty racist sports fans out there. Understanding that, why _wouldn’t_ some of these people go into sports journalism? Because you can choose who you root for in sports. You can like the white guys on your team and hate everyone else. Sports journalists don’t have that kind of lattitude (remember, most of these people are beat writers, not columnists or ESPN anchors). A baseball writer who hates black people or Latin people is going to have to be around them and talk to them frequently in addition to watching them. So I’d think they’d choose another path to avoid dealing with those people- but that’s just my way of thinking. > [@](#): > > Just because a particular bias is unconscious doesn’t mean it can’t be racist. That’s absolutely true. But what we’re talking about here is the way people are discussed and thought about, not how they’re treated or the esteem in which they are held as human beings, and I feel that boiling down this discussion to “sportswriters are racists” misses the point by singling them out. The sportswriters in this case aren’t more racist than anybody else. These terms are just one of the ways that racism in our culture (and racial issues in our culture) can come to the fore. > [@](#): > > Venus and Serena are prime examples of the press’s overapplication of the word “athleticism”. If you mean that it was repeated _ad nauseam_ , then yes, it was. On the other hand, it’s not an inaccurate description of how they played or why they dominated the game. They do not (do I have to say “did not?” already? Jeez.) win by craft, and there’s no getting around that. They were absolutely superior, physically - stronger and faster - than anyone else in the game. Of course, Sharapova and Davenport don’t win by craft either. And as long as I’m here? Duke DID lose to LSU because LSU had better athletes. They also lost to North Carolina for that reason. Duke couldn’t compete with the great shot-blocking and rebounding effort LSU gave, and couldn’t score and many easy baskets. I think that’s why they’ve been losing early in the NCAA tournament in the last few years. They don’t rebound as hard or as well. They may play smart, but smarts can falter in the face of athleticism. The opposite also happens, of course. I wouldn’t be surprised if smarts vs. skill is pretty much a 50-50 battle. Of course, Duke’s team isn’t all white. That’s just the players they have. > [@middleman](#): > > There is a little bit of code language, but what I don’t understand why it is viewed as a slight on the black athletes. If anything, it is a euphemism to protect the feelings of the white kids. It might be that these days. But if it works that way, the message is “YOU play the game right. You’re smarter and work harder. They just jump better.” Which _should_ rub people the wrong way. It implies resentment and could be said to foster resentment. I’m not saying these words CAN’T be used in a racist manner. I’ve read many opinion pieces that have dealt with this issue in a very perceptive manner and I have been considering this issue for some months. Someone on [ESPN.com](http://ESPN.com) - Scoop Jackson, I think - theorized that if Fisher DeBerry, head football coach at Air Force, had said six months ago that ‘we need more athletes’ instead of ‘we need more black kids,’ [paraphrased] nobody would have complained. I’m sure Scoop was right. But it IS true that if you have greater athletic skills, you can compensate for other flaws. That’s obvious. A guy who can’t run particularly fast or jump especially high (by pro standards) has a ceiling - he’ll get so good and that’s it. A guy with greater athletic ability, even if that ability is less developed, can go further than that, and he’s more likely to earn multiple chances to succeed. Which is only fair: you can get more out of a guy with more potential, and choosing players from a draft is largely about potential. And maybe I’ll be unpopular for saying it, but you can certainly make a legit argument that there are racial achievement gaps in some sports. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/28 "2006-04-03T20:38:21Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > A baseball writer who hates black people or Latin people is going to have to be around them and talk to them frequently in addition to watching them. So I’d think they’d choose another path to avoid dealing with those people- but that’s just my way of thinking. You don’t have to actually hate somebody to harbor racist ideas about them, though. A sportscaster who thinks blacks are inherently unfit to quarterback because “they lack the thinking skills” is not expressing any hatred or malice. But they are being racist. This type of person existing in the sportscaster arena is certainly not outside the realm of plausbility. To exempt them from that place is actually more incredible. > [@](#): > > That’s absolutely true. But what we’re talking about here is the way people are discussed and thought about, not how they’re treated or the esteem in which they are held as human beings, and I feel that boiling down this discussion to “sportswriters are racists” misses the point by singling them out. I disagree that the “atheletic” vs. “smart, hard-worker” bias has nothing to do with how blacks are ultimately regarded alongside their white counterparts, in ways that have very much to do with their treatment and “the esteem in which they are held as human beings”. There is nothing wrong with calling this particular slant racist when it is. I don’t see how this is oversimplifying anything. It’s calling a duck a duck, instead of calling it a bird that goes quack-quack. > [@](#): > > The sportswriters in this case aren’t more racist than anybody else. These terms are just one of the ways that racism in our culture (and racial issues in our culture) can come to the fore. I don’t understand this. I don’t think anyone is saying that sportwriters are _more_ racist than anyone else. I think the argument has been that they are exhibiting racism through the adjectives they use to describe certain players. And if you admit that these terms are one of that ways that racism are expressed, then why balk at the suggestion that the sportscasters are being racist? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/29 "2006-04-03T20:48:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It might be that these days. But if it works that way, the message is “YOU play the game right. You’re smarter and work harder. They just jump better.” Which _should_ rub people the wrong way. It implies resentment and could be said to foster resentment. If we lived in a perfect world, a kid like Steve Wojciechowski would be an NBA all-star. But he lacked the basic athleticism and is instead an Asst. Coach at Duke. Sometimes, the White kid that fails to make it WAS mored skilled than the black kid who becomes a millionaire. Darius Miles comes to mind. Sometimes a black athlete DOES get further because they can jump further. And sometimes biggots do use this to denegrate blacks. What this ignores is that such a statement is not truly a blanket. Look at the best players in the NBA. The ones that are real winners. For the most part, they are black, but they are also players who can answer yes to all three of my criteria listed above. Shaquille O’Neal correctly nicknamed Tim Duncan “The Big Fundamental”. Kevin Garnett has a freakish array of basketball abilities. It is a toss up as to who is the most complete player since Jordan retired: Lebron or Kobe. There isn’t an overachieving white guy who can say he worked harder or developed his game more than these guys. But to say that no one got to the NBA because SIMPLY because they can jump ignores a terrible trend in the NBA draft from about 1999 through through the present. [sub](I’m not saying **Marley23** made such claims. I was just on my high horse and didn’t feel like coming down.)[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/30 "2006-04-03T21:05:16Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > And if you admit that these terms are one of that ways that racism are expressed, then why balk at the suggestion that the sportscasters are being racist? 😕 A sportscaster using the term _may_ be being racist by using these terms. But using this language does not make one a racist. Many black players are athletic and many white players are smart (and the converse is also true, naturally). Judging that a particular writer or reporter is racially biased has to be done, usually, through examining his body of work. So I’m attempting to resist making statements that I feel are stronger than what is warranted. I read **pizzabrat** ’s reply to **RickJay** as “all sportswriters are racist.” ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/31 "2006-04-03T22:24:40Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I read **pizzabrat** ’s reply to **RickJay** as “all sportswriters are racist.” :rolleyes: Of course that’s _not_ what I was saying. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/32 "2006-04-04T18:51:40Z")
> [@middleman](#): > > I There are as MORE black players with fundamental skills than whites in basketball. BUT, almost all of the whites have fundamental skills because they couldn’t make it otherwise. The white players are disproportionately skilled because they have to be. Dude, I’m a Toronto Raptors fan, and this is simply, absolutely false. If you don’t believe me, watch Rafael Araujo play for two minutes. He’s the least fundamentally skilled player since Yinka Dare. I still remember Eric “The Montrossity” Montross, too. White guy who was in the NBA because he was tall. If he had good fundamentals, I’m Winnie the Pooh. Absent any sort of proof, I simply don’t believe white NBA players are likelier to have fundamental skills than black players, 'cause I’ve seen the ones without those skills, and they usually had a dinosaur on their uniforms. ---
**Author:** ![middleman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@middleman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/middleman)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057/33 "2006-04-04T19:00:03Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Dude, I’m a Toronto Raptors fan, I’m sorry. 😉 > [@](#): > > and this is simply, absolutely false. If you don’t believe me, watch Rafael Araujo play for two minutes. He’s the least fundamentally skilled player since Yinka Dare. > > I still remember Eric “The Montrossity” Montross, too. White guy who was in the NBA because he was tall. If he had good fundamentals, I’m Winnie the Pooh. Ah, yes. Exception #1 to the rule- “You can’t teach heighth.” Fair point. > [@](#): > > Absent any sort of proof, I simply don’t believe white NBA players are likelier to have fundamental skills than black players, 'cause I’ve seen the ones without those skills, and they usually had a dinosaur on their uniforms. “Fundamental Skills”, these days, are judged on a sliding scale in the NBA. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-do-sportscasters-mean-by-athletic/351057.md?page=1)