# So what happens if a cadet passes up the Kobayashi Maru? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 27, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467 "2013-05-27T16:11:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/intergalactic_gladiator/32/112_2.png) [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intergalactic_Gladiator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/61 "2013-05-29T19:11:09Z")
> [@Hermione](#): > > (You can actually read the whole novel [here.)](http://members.tripod.com/nerd_42/maru.html) I really liked that novel too and I’m going to have to give it another read, I think. It added a lot of character to Kirk’s actions in rigging the game so he could win. That’s one thing that I found frustrating about the 2009 reboot. None of the reasoning behind what he did was there; it was all replaced by Smug Cadet Kirk eating an apple in front of everyone while being dressed down for his actions. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/62 "2013-05-29T19:26:14Z")
I remember the book. My favorite was Scotty’s solution and how he got “busted down” to engineering corps for noticing a flaw in the computer programming. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/63 "2013-05-29T20:01:45Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > You should have seen him in the ST:ENT threads! > > 😛 > > ST:ENT – talk about no win scenario… Hey, I liked ST:ENT, or at least I started to once they got that Xindi crap out of the way. Though on reflection, the Xindi themselves might have been tolerable if they hadn’t kept hammering on that “the fate of EARTH!” button. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/64 "2013-05-29T20:05:14Z")
Yeah, we were all relieved, and then disappointed, and often alcohol impaired. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/65 "2013-05-30T21:46:28Z")
> [@Saltire](#): > > Another possibility if you leave the Kobayashi Maru alone is that you have to stay on station, on your side of the Neutral Zone, and watch the civilians be killed, listening to increasingly desperate and dire distress calls. That would also test the character of the command cadet. True, though a Vulcan cadet would have a very different reaction to a human. Then again what logical reason would there be to continue to play the distress calls over the bridge speakers _after_ it’s been determined that rescue is impossible. Other than being more dramatic for anyone that happened to be watching. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/66 "2013-05-30T22:50:11Z")
I’m kinda curious about the cadet who figures “if this a legit distress call, I’ll broadcast a general signal to any and all Klingon vessels requesting permission to enter the Zone. If nobody answers, that’s suspicious and this is obviously a trap. If they do answer, I’ll see if I can talk them into rescuing the ship and delivering the survivors to some neutral base.” For that matter, once the Federation ship enters the zone, it’s in violation of treaty, right? So aren’t the Klingon ships already there in violation of treaty as well? Attack them! ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/67 "2013-05-30T23:53:43Z")
For some reason, when Star Trek says “neutral zone” they mean “region patrolled and defended by the other race”. Starfleet stays on the Federation side of the line, Klingons stay on the Klingon side, the line is about a meter wide. Same thing for Romulans. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/68 "2013-05-31T00:16:16Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > For some reason, when Star Trek says “neutral zone” they mean “region patrolled and defended by the other race”. Yeah, they’re pretty stupid that way. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/69 "2013-05-31T00:28:45Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The novelization went into greater detail, but I guess Vonda McIntyre was trying to come up with some kind of rationalization to explain what was essentially just a “let’s kill everybody in the first five minutes and then reveal it was all just a ‘dream’” movie cold opening, hardly unique. On the contrary, the scene is foreshadowing, it’s the theme of the whole movie in microcosm. The battle with Khan is repeatedly compared to the KM sim. We see the no-win scenario. We see the need to face death. We learn how Kirk has always cheated death, and then can’t stand the death of a friend. Thwe thing is utterly essential to the drama of the film. > [@](#): > > Of course, the scene has a greater significance not for Saavik at all, but for Kirk, who is facing his own mortality and (eventually) that of his best friend. That’s \*part \*of it, yes. As for Starfleet being military, I think of it as being sort of a Swiss Army knife. It has many functions including scientific research, exploration, diplomacy, emergency rescue, transportation of colonists and equipment, and so on. Military is one of its ‘blades’ as it were, but not the most important one. So \*mostly \*Starfleet isn’t military…mostly. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/70 "2013-05-31T00:35:03Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Has any actual commander in an actual military been praised by his superiors for breaking a rule? (Cases where the rules are ambiguous or contradictory wouldn’t count for what I’m looking for.) I almost said ‘Nelson’ but it turns out that’s a misconception. > **[Turning a blind eye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turning_a_blind_eye)** > > Turning a blind eye is an idiom describing the ignoring of undesirable information. The Oxford English Dictionary records usage of the phrase in 1698. > The phrase to turn a blind eye is often associated with Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson at the Battle of Copenhagen in 1801. An orchestrated version of what actually happened gives the story that during the battle, Admiral Sir Hyde Parker, in overall command of the British forces, sent a signal to Nelson's forces ordering them to discontinue the acti... ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/71 "2013-05-31T01:10:39Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > On the contrary, the scene is foreshadowing, it’s the theme of the whole movie in microcosm. The battle with Khan is repeatedly compared to the KM sim. We see the no-win scenario. We see the need to face death. We learn how Kirk has always cheated death, and then can’t stand the death of a friend. Thwe thing is utterly essential to the drama of the film. Sure the scene _as presented_ serves its purpose within the film. McIntyre, though, had to write a follow-up scene for the novelization where the purpose of the Kobayashi Maru simulation was discussed, and I’m guessing there isn’t really a good way to do that, since its value as a teaching tool is questionable at best. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/72 "2013-05-31T02:42:31Z")
And Kirk ended up cheating death again, tho not by his design, with the Genesis Torpedo regenerating Spock. Net result: win. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/73 "2013-05-31T02:44:09Z")
The problem isn’t with the test, it’s with how the test breaks down where Magic Kirk is involved. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/74 "2013-05-31T03:48:10Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > … its value as a teaching tool is questionable at best. I disagree. It is useful to see how people react when everything they do goes wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/75 "2013-05-31T05:27:53Z")
Well, it’s not the cadet who’s being taught, then, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/76 "2013-05-31T05:28:53Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > The problem isn’t with the test, it’s with how the test breaks down where Magic Kirk is involved. I assume he pre-ripped his shirt on the third try. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2013, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467/77 "2013-05-31T12:08:47Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > since its value as a teaching tool is questionable at best. That’s because it’s not a teaching tool; it’s an assessment tool. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-a-cadet-passes-up-the-kobayashi-maru/659467.md?page=3)