# So, what happens if an organic chicken gets sick? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 20, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348 "2011-01-20T17:15:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MTSBspidey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@MTSBspidey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTSBspidey)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/1 "2011-01-20T17:15:26Z")
My wife used to work on a farm, and she brought up a really good question recently. With all the organic chicken and beef, the big selling point is that they never use any antibiotics ever. So, what if an animal gets sick? Not sick enough that they have to kill it, but just sick enough that a vet would give it antibiotics. Once that happens, it’s tainted as far as the Whole Foods crowd is concerned, right? What do they do? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/2 "2011-01-20T17:24:42Z")
From an [AgriBusiness Week article](http://www.agribusinessweek.com/organic-livestock-and-poultry-farming-part-2/): > [@](#): > > Prophylactic treatments, hormones, and antibiotics are prohibited. Animals should be treated with medications only when they are sick. But if the animals are treated with a prohibited substance, their products cannot be sold as organic. AFAIK, there’s no rule that says organic farmers can’t sell to non-organic markets, so I presume that if they have a significant amount of antibiotic-treated chicken, that’s what they do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/3 "2011-01-20T17:27:29Z")
> [@MTSBspidey](#): > > Not sick enough that they have to kill it, but just sick enough that a vet would give it antibiotics. There may not be any such territory in the case of chickens. A sick bird is a threat to the rest of the flock and is killed expeditiously, IME. A vet call certainly costs a lot more than one bird. ---
**Author:** ![Alpha\_Twit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alpha_twit/32/265_2.png) [@Alpha\_Twit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alpha_Twit)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/4 "2011-01-20T17:34:08Z")
No experience here and I could be completely wrong about this but organic labeling is perfectly fine with the use of antibiotics to treat specific, known diseases that are confirmed to actually be present in a specific animal. I always thought the problem stemmed from the _routine_ use of antibiotics in order to potentially prevent future issues. By giving the entire flock antibiotics with their feed, they grow up faster, stronger and diseases never have a chance to gain a foothold say some. As a practical reality, I suspect that if the organic chicken farmer notices that one specimen has beakrot then that animal is simply culled and discarded. It’s the economies of scale and agricultural production that are preventing treatment with antibiotics - not “Organic” labeling. ---
**Author:** ![johnpost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@johnpost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johnpost)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/5 "2011-01-20T17:36:22Z")
chicken soup ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/6 "2011-01-20T17:49:20Z")
It’s pretty common in agriculture to down-grade products so that they can be sold in some fashion. If you can’t be organic, sell to an ordinary processor. Even among ordinary processors, you have different grades of meat, eggs, etc. If you can’t sell the whole bird, cut it up for parts. If it isn’t fit for human consumption, process for animal feed. At some point you get all the way down to “mechanically separated” and “de-fatted fat” for things like chicken nuggets. They still haven’t found a good use for the feathers, though… ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/7 "2011-01-20T17:52:54Z")
A sick bird? That’s ill eagle. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/8 "2011-01-20T18:00:01Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > They still haven’t found a good use for the feathers, though… Here’s one: [Feathers are big in new age healing.](http://healing.about.com/cs/native/a/aa_feathers.htm)[Here’s another.](http://www.ehow.com/how_2146462_use-feathers-around-house.html) And what about stuffing in pillows? I always heard that there was a use for everything on the farm; they use “every part of the pig except the squeal.” ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/9 "2011-01-20T18:00:24Z")
> [@Alpha\_Twit](#): > > I always thought the problem stemmed from the _routine_ use of antibiotics in order to potentially prevent future issues. By giving the entire flock antibiotics with their feed… Yes, that’s my understanding, as well. What the organic farmer does with the sick chicken today is probably whatever _all_ farmers did with sick chickens a hundred years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Avarie537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/48db29/32.png) [@Avarie537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avarie537)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/10 "2011-01-20T18:16:18Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > It’s pretty common in agriculture to down-grade products so that they can be sold in some fashion. If you can’t be organic, sell to an ordinary processor. Even among ordinary processors, you have different grades of meat, eggs, etc. If you can’t sell the whole bird, cut it up for parts. If it isn’t fit for human consumption, process for animal feed. At some point you get all the way down to “mechanically separated” and “de-fatted fat” for things like chicken nuggets. > > **They still haven’t found a good use for the feathers, though…** Biodiesel or fertilizer. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/11 "2011-01-20T18:19:41Z")
Over at the JREF Forum, there’s a regular who’s a vet in the UK, and has strong opinions about organic farming methods. From [this posting](http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4195425&postcount=15): > [@](#): > > The Luddite nature of the organic movement chooses to regard these products as “evil chemicals”, and demonises their use. The ethos is profoundly anti-vaccination, even though there is no possible effect that vaccination can have on the end product. The ethos is also profoundly against prophylactic treatment, in spite of the fact that prophylactic anti-parasite treatment is a major contributor to animal health and welfare. And the ethos also heavily discourages even the treatment of sick animals. > > Yes, the guidelines on paper say soothing things indicating that the welfare of the animal must come before the organic certification, but in practice it just doesn’t work this way. The loss of organic status consequent on the use of veterinary medicines is a sufficiently important economic factor that instances of animals which should have been treated (or treated much earlier than they in fact were) are common. > > Just one anecdote, from the spring of this year. I received into the post mortem room the carcasses of two young ewes. I was surprised by their size, because they looked like six-month-old lambs, but there are no six-month-old lambs in April. The were in fact a year old. They were stunted in growth, and also extremely thin. Body fat was virtually absent. The carcasses were soaked in foul diarrhoea. Routine post mortem examination revealed that they had died because of a severe infestation of gastrointestinal parasites. > > I checked the paperwork. It stated that the farm was organic. By this stage, that was no great surprise to me. It also revealed that these were the ninth and tenth fatalities in the group, all with similar signs. > > A farmer would not usually expect to lose any of a group of young replacement breeding stock, and while one-off incidents do happen, most would be shouting for help when a second death occurred. The condition that killed these sheep was easily prevented and easily treated - but of course that would have meant using the “evil chemicals”. It’s also a chronic condition. These poor sheep had been losing condition, getting thinner and thinner and suffering from increasingly severe diarrhoea for weeks. TEN of them (remember, young adults, who should have been in the prime of life) had died before any action was taken. Is this animal welfare? Not in my book. > > Oh, but they were free to roam the hills! Well, whoopee. They were Blackface sheep. That’s what Blackface sheep do. That’s how they’re all managed. The only difference was that they were not accorded the right to either preventative or therapeutic medical treatment. > > And don’t get me started on organic milk. ---
**Author:** ![MTSBspidey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@MTSBspidey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MTSBspidey)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/12 "2011-01-20T18:57:56Z")
Thank you all for you answers. I think CurtC is closest to what I was wondering. Are the organic farmers so afraid of losing “organic” status that if an animal is sick they won’t even get it medicine? It looks like, at least in some cases, they don’t. I assume Kimstu and Dracoi are on the right track with the farmers changing the labels to non-organic. However everyone we’ve talked to seems to also have the same ‘I think it’s…’ and ‘I’d assume they…’ answers. No one seems to know for certain what happens if a cow on an organic farm gets sick. I didn’t mean for everyone to get so hung up on chickens specifically. I guess I probably could have been more clear in my original question, that I was more wondering about larger animals like cows and as in Curt’s example, sheep, but no one uses the phrase “organic cows”. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/13 "2011-01-20T19:01:23Z")
Organic farmers most assuredly do use vaccines, so I think he’s exaggerating that “profoundly anti-vaccination” ethos. There have been organic advocates who questioned the need for certain vaccines in certain contexts, but IME the key vaccines are virtually always used. (For organic chickens, their standard vaccinations as chicks are likely to constitute all the medical attention they will ever receive.) Prophylactic antibiotics are an _entirely_ different thing. Animals that need lifelong antibiotics simply to avoid showing signs of illness resulting from their _everyday conditions_ cannot reasonably be thought of as _healthy_ animals. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/14 "2011-01-20T19:14:27Z")
> [@MTSBspidey](#): > > Are the organic farmers so afraid of losing “organic” status that if an animal is sick they won’t even get it medicine? That makes it sound like organic farmers are less sensitive than conventional ones to animal suffering, which is, if anything, the opposite of the truth. The value of the finished products is certainly a concern–this is a business–so if there is an _effective_, certification-compliant organic treatment, that will be used first. But if it’s not established as effective, nobody’s going to risk the health, and value, of _more_ animals by letting one go untreated out of devotion to an abstract anti-“chemical” ethos. Either the animal will be swiftly killed to protect the rest of the stock, or it will be treated organically, or it will be treated inorganically and its products taken out of the certified operation. In any case, the treatment from the animal’s point of view will be at least as good under the organic regime as under the conventional. > [@MTSBspidey](#): > > I didn’t mean for everyone to get so hung up on chickens specifically. I guess I probably could have been more clear in my original question, that I was more wondering about larger animals like cows and as in Curt’s example, sheep, but no one uses the phrase “organic cows”. The relevant terms would be “organic beef” and “organic milk.” However, you’ll also see labels saying things like “all-natural grass-fed beef,” without an actual organic certification. There are a number of producers who aren’t certified, but are dedicated to _minimizing_ the use of problematic/restricted additives. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/15 "2011-01-20T19:21:10Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Over at the JREF Forum, there’s a regular who’s a vet in the UK, and has strong opinions about organic farming methods. From [this posting](http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4195425&postcount=15): He might claim to be a vet, but he’s shockingly ignorant of what organic farming is. Since this is GQ, it might be useful to link to the [US Government List of approved chemicals permissible in organic livestock production](http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=e9eab4e3385d77ea2b5b612f17a3e935&rgn=div8&view=text&node=7:3.1.1.9.32.7.354.4&idno=7) and the [similar EU regulations](http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/growing/organic/standards/pdf/compendium.pdf). Of course a sick animal can be treated with antibiotics, What’s not allowed is to hand pills out like candy. Not to say that there aren’t any woo woo organic farmers out there, but there are undoubtedly more nut job inorganic farmers as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/16 "2011-01-20T19:23:38Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > They still haven’t found a good use for the feathers, though… Feathers are 80% protein and feather meal is sold as a commodity used in the production of animal feed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/17 "2011-01-20T19:26:36Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Organic farmers most assuredly do use vaccines, so I think he’s exaggerating that “profoundly anti-vaccination” ethos. Right. From the article I linked above: > [@](#): > > There are five (5) important things to remember in organic livestock health management: > > 1. Selecting appropriate breeds and types > 2. Balanced Nutrition > 3. Adequate housing, access to the outdoors, and sanitation > 4. Provisions for natural behavior and exercise, and stress reduction > 5. Preventive measures such as vaccines and other inoculants Maybe the self-described UK vet on the Randi Foundation messageboard quoted by **CurtC** , if his accounts of his own experience are accurate, is encountering a different set of organic certification regulations that prohibit vaccine use. Or maybe he’s just encountering a subset of organic farmers who are radical Luddites opposed to **every** modern invention. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/18 "2011-01-20T19:29:56Z")
> [@MTSBspidey](#): > > No one seems to know for certain what happens if a cow on an organic farm gets sick. It is treated by a vet using approved medication. In the EU loses its organic status for 28 days after treatment ends (56 days in the US). It also can’t produce organic milk for a week or two. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/19 "2011-01-20T20:40:01Z")
I do know an organic beef farmer who lets her cows get sick. She says that letting natural selection take care of it works better than antibiotics, at least for her bottom line. She claims to have the highest profit margin in her field in this area. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348/20 "2011-01-20T20:51:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I do know an organic beef farmer who lets her cows get sick. She says that letting natural selection take care of it works better than antibiotics, at least for her bottom line. She claims to have the highest profit margin in her field in this area. Yikes. Do you mean that she simply doesn’t treat her sick livestock at all? For any type of problem? I guess not spending any money on vet bills could indeed increase your profit margin, but I’m not sure that’s the sort of livestock owner I’d care to do business with. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-an-organic-chicken-gets-sick/568348.md?page=2)