# So what happens if someone dies and the next of kin doesn't want to be involved? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 25, 2017, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023 "2017-03-25T19:24:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/21 "2017-03-26T19:13:56Z")
> [@Hey\_Hey\_Paula](#): > > I would hope the gold is in a secure place, like a safe deposit box, where it cannot be easily stolen and not just lying around the house; otherwise it may not be there when the executor, whoever it is, goes to deal with the estate. :smack: It is in a safe deposit box… ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/22 "2017-03-26T19:31:31Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > What’s the difference between wandering off with the gold, and an oral agreement between him and his father where Dad outright gives him the gold? Let’s say they had the conversation an hour before his health went downhill, and he died before having a chance to update the written will. Alive or dead, a gift made to stiff one’s creditors can be deemed a fraudulent transfer, and the creditors potentially can recover the property from the recipient of the gift. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/23 "2017-03-26T21:28:31Z")
> [@edwardcoast](#): > > Let’s assume he did all this already and named you as executor, there really isn’t anything for you to do, since you’d use an attorney for it all. A realtor would sell the home. You could hire a company to come clear everything out of it, if you really don’t think there is anything there of value. They could have an auction. That doesn’t sound like “nothing” to me. It sounds like weeks and months of finding professionals, calling professionals, dealing with professionals. It’s a lot more than I’d want to put up with for someone I was totally estranged from. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/24 "2017-03-26T22:01:28Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > What’s the difference between wandering off with the gold, and an oral agreement between him and his father where Dad outright gives him the gold? Let’s say they had the conversation an hour before his health went downhill, and he died before having a chance to update the written will. > > It would turn into a legal version of He Said She Said. Yet, the fact that it happened wouldn’t implicate the OP of committing fraud, would it? When there is a transfer of an asset from an elder parent to an adult child without any proof of an intent to gift absolutely, you have to look at the law of the jurisdiction. Does the jurisdiction’s law start with the rebuttable presumption of advancement, or does the jurisdiction’s law start with the rebuttable presumption of resulting trust? The smart money is on the old guy writing out, signing and dating a letter in front of a witness stating that the gold is a gift, and then stapling it to the son’s forehead while shouting “Don’t lose this letter!” ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/25 "2017-03-26T22:17:34Z")
If the old guy lived for a few more years, paying his regular bills along the way, then not problemo. If the old guy was in default and had creditors pounding at his door when he made the gift, then there is a good chance that the gold would be reeled back by the creditors as a fraudulent conveyance (again, depending on the laws of the jurisdiction). Dying broke is usually a good thing when it comes to intergenerational transfer if there are death taxes/fees, but leaving it to the last minute is often a very bad thing that scuppers the transfer. Transferring wealth well ahead of death has it’s own risks for elders, namely the recipient legally scarpering off with the assets, or running into financial trouble and losing the assets, leaving the elder hungry, wanting to buy groceries for a three course meal, but finding himself without any recourse other than to sue for parental support (if that jurisdiction’s law includes parental support). That’s the nice thing about dysfunctional families: they keep lawyers in business. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2017, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/26 "2017-03-26T22:53:35Z")
Have you talked this over with the rest of your family? His death could have an effect on them, even though they are estranged. You say he doesn’t have any personal items that you might want, but do you know the same is true for everyone? Also, do your family members know they’re not likely to get anything from his estate? You’ve kept contact with your dad, so it seems likely you know a lot more about his financial situation than they do. If they think the estate will be worth something to them, they could get really angry with you if you take no action when your dad dies. They might even think you’re grabbing his assets for yourself. If I were in your position, I would explain things to your family now, and encourage your dad to write a will where you’re not the executor. As for your dad giving you the $10,000 in gold before he dies: would that even be legal considering he has a large judgment against him? And if the gold is mentioned in the will, would that cause any problems for you? ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/27 "2017-03-27T00:38:36Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Ya know, counselling fraud is really crappy legal advice. I didn’t “counsel” anything. I stated that it is commonly done, and frequently gotten away with, and in a trivial estate, likely to go unchallenged. Implicit ih what I said was that it was illegal, and you’d be taking your chances. ---
**Author:** ![Mdcastle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/958977/32.png) [@Mdcastle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mdcastle)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/28 "2017-03-27T00:39:51Z")
This is Minnesota if it makes a difference, the judgement are over 10 years old if it makes a difference. AFAIK his creditors have stopped calling long ago. I am sure there’s not any personal items that other immediate family and former family members might want. Most of the “family heritage”- photos, and whatnot, stayed with us, but I might ask if he has anything his relatives back in his home might want. It’s a bit uncomfortable to me talking about this stuff with him, but since he’s almost 80… ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/29 "2017-03-27T02:32:32Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I didn’t “counsel” anything. You make me laugh. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/30 "2017-03-27T03:04:27Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I didn’t “counsel” anything. I stated that it is commonly done, and frequently gotten away with, and in a trivial estate, likely to go unchallenged. Implicit ih what I said was that it was illegal, and you’d be taking your chances. If you implied it was illegal, please point it out, because I don’t see it. > [@jtur88](#): > > I believe that if you are named as he executor and only heir, you can just go in and take the gold coins and not say anything about them, as well as any other property of value or interest to you. . Unless the creditors somehow know that he was supposed to have them, you will not be challenged. (Executors do this all the time – often even if there ARE other heirs, but may have to answer to them.) The executor is allowed legally to charge the estate a reasonable fee for the service, as well as any associated costs of executing the will. Just say you took some personnel effects in lieu of cash, of which there wasn’t any. You will not be held responsible to pay any of your money to resolve any debts. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/31 "2017-03-27T03:07:14Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > A few notes: > > 1. We have actually discussed the idea of turning the gold over to me before his death, because he earlier borrowed money from me about equal to that amount on an oral agreement. I know enough not to go to just take it if he passes. > > 2. He has a will. I am named executor with myself and my sister split 50/50 > > 3. Without getting into details because they’re not important, he brought the estrangement on himself through criminal actions involving another family member. I was not involved or even aware of it until much later so I’m the one remaining on best terms with him. > > 4. The whole planning a funeral thing is not something I think I can deal with, but not having talked about it with him I feel the proper thing is returning his remains to his home town 500 miles a way where his parents rest and most of his family is. > > 5. We have no real immediate use for the townhouse since we own our own house In some ways even if I wind up assuming payments with no equity left I guess real estate is a good investment and it could be a no-maintenance crash pad up home up north here if we retire and be snowbirds, but I don’t really want to be a landlord and I’m don’t know if rentals are even allowed by the HOA. If he owes you money, you need to register as one of his creditors, so when his stuff is liquidated, you will get back what he owes you. There may be a way to say “I don’t want my share liquidated; I want gold at current prices.” IANAL, however. I would consult a real one-- a lawyer, that is. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/32 "2017-03-27T03:14:04Z")
under CA law (I suspect this is common in all of Us (maybe not La): A debt never “dies” - it can be paid off or discharged through bankruptcy, but it will never die. The Statute of Limitations on debt simply mean that, after X years, the Courts cannot be used to enforce the debt. Before the Web, the passage of time and a move to another State meant the old creditors never learned of the death until well after probate had discharged the debt. I suspect that has changed. A “gift” meant to defraud creditors can be challenged and the value of it “clawed back”. Saying “I spent it! You Lose!” will get you nailed as the debtor. So: he needs to get rid of any/all assets. Wait 2 years (or however long local law specifies), then file bankruptcy, Chap 7 to ditch the old debts. Otherwise, the gold either stays with the estate or somebody will come looking for it - esp. if they find notes indicating he had it within 2 years of his death. If it stays in the Safe Deposit box (assuming this is a bank) - the bank should not allow anyone to open the box without legal authority to open it - the Executor or an heir after the estate is settled and the heir can prove he is the legal owner. If you want to steal it, at least have him get it out of the box and somewhere easily opened. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/33 "2017-03-27T04:32:21Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > I didn’t “counsel” anything. I stated that it is commonly done, and frequently gotten away with, and in a trivial estate, likely to go unchallenged. Implicit ih what I said was that it was illegal, and you’d be taking your chances. I didn’t say you _should_ steal and lie; I only said that if you did you’d probably get away with it. I mean, who’s gonna know, right? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/34 "2017-03-27T04:35:16Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > Saw a documentary on this in LA county. If nobody claims the body , they cremate it and hold on to ashes for a year (I think). After the year the ashes are buried in a grave with other ashes from other unclaimed bodies. For the stuff owned by the person they also keep that for a little while in case a relative or friend claims the stuff. After that it’s sold off. Was it “A Certain Kind of Death”? Good movie, and sad too. ---
**Author:** ![Dag\_Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@Dag\_Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dag_Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/35 "2017-03-27T05:03:15Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > This is Minnesota if it makes a difference, the judgement are over 10 years old if it makes a difference. AFAIK his creditors have stopped calling long ago. It may make a difference. A quick web search shows that a [judgement expires after 10 years](http://thekuhnlawfirm.com/how-to-renew-a-judgment-in-minnesota/)unless renewed. May be worth verifying. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/36 "2017-03-27T05:36:15Z")
> [@Mdcastle](#): > > A few notes: > > 1. We have actually discussed the idea of turning the gold over to me before his death, because he earlier borrowed money from me about equal to that amount on an oral agreement. I know enough not to go to just take it if he passes. He can make you a gift every year, and $10,000 is below the IRS limit. I would get this taken care of sooner rather than later. If you want to document that it is a loan payment, you can do so, but it sounds unnecessary. > [@](#): > > 1. He has a will. I am named executor with myself and my sister split 50/50 > > 2. Without getting into details because they’re not important, he brought the estrangement on himself through criminal actions involving another family member. I was not involved or even aware of it until much later so I’m the one remaining on best terms with him. > > 3. The whole planning a funeral thing is not something I think I can deal with, but not having talked about it with him I feel the proper thing is returning his remains to his home town 500 miles a way where his parents rest and most of his family is. > > 4. We have no real immediate use for the townhouse since we own our own house In some ways even if I wind up assuming payments with no equity left I guess real estate is a good investment and it could be a no-maintenance crash pad up home up north here if we retire and be snowbirds, but I don’t really want to be a landlord and I’m don’t know if rentals are even allowed by the HOA. Does your sister own her own home? If not, perhaps it would be worth talking to an attorney about this. Homes may (depending on jurisdiction) be protected from the judgment. Talk to an attorney about whether there is any way to protect the home in the event of your father’s death. The answer may be no, or it may be, yes, if he sets up a trust or if she is on the mortgage or ?? I don’t think it would be expensive to set up a meeting to at least discuss the issue. (Or maybe it would be in your name - whichever - have the conversation at least) ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/37 "2017-03-27T22:48:08Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > under CA law (I suspect this is common in all of Us (maybe not La): > > A debt never “dies” - it can be paid off or discharged through bankruptcy, but it will never die. > The Statute of Limitations on debt simply mean that, after X years, the Courts cannot be used to enforce the debt. Isn’t this kind of a distinction without a difference? A debt that’s been discharged through bankruptcy, or that is past the statute of limitations is one you don’t have to pay. How is that different from a debt that doesn’t exist? ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2017, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023/38 "2017-03-28T02:28:12Z")
Read again. Until the Web, an old debt was never seen again. Now, unless discharged or paid, that debt will show up with a claim against the Estate. It never dies - the old verbiage for a Will read “after payment of all just debts” - old CC’s may roll off you credit report, and the phone may stop ringing - but it is still a “valid debt” and, if presented for Probate, must be paid - in full or pro-rated, but paid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-happens-if-someone-dies-and-the-next-of-kin-doesnt-want-to-be-involved/783023.md?page=1)