# So what is the ideal source of protein? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 3, 2020, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145 "2020-10-03T20:21:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2023, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/21 "2023-03-12T03:30:31Z")
I am unsure why this thread was revived and am not going to reread it. There are nine essential amino acids and things like meat, soy, quinoa, dairy, fish and buckwheat often are complete. I was perhaps referring to something like corn, maybe someone mentioned a single source earlier in the thread or something? Beans and rice is popular for a reason. There are many other problems with eating people. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2023, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/22 "2023-03-12T03:40:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > What do we eat the other 68 years? Zombies? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/23 "2023-03-14T10:37:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And the big problem with cannibalism is simply one of supply. A human body might contain enough protein to feed a human for a couple of years, but we live for 70 or more. And assuming the population is staying stable, you’ve got about one person born per corpse. What do we eat the other 68 years? In the short term I would be more concerned about catching any diseases a corpse May potentially have. Most worryingly, some form of spongiform encelopathy, aka kudzu aka mad cow disease, for which there is no cure. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/24 "2023-03-14T16:19:16Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > spongiform encelopathy, aka kudzu aka mad cow disease Uh, minor nitpick. Kuru. Not kudzu. > **[Kuru (disease)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_(disease))** > > Kuru is a rare, incurable, and fatal neurodegenerative disorder that was formerly common among the Fore people of Papua New Guinea. Kuru is a form of transmissible spongiform encephalopathy (TSE) caused by the transmission of abnormally folded proteins (prions), which leads to symptoms such as tremors and loss of coordination from neurodegeneration. > The term kuru derives from the Fore word kuria or guria ("to shake"), due to the body tremors that are a classic symptom of the disease. Kúru itself... > **[Kudzu](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu)** > > Kudzu (/ˈkuːdzu, ˈkʊd-, ˈkʌd-/), also called Japanese arrowroot or Chinese arrowroot, is a group of climbing, coiling, and trailing deciduous perennial vines native to much of East Asia, Southeast Asia, and some Pacific islands, but invasive in many parts of the world, primarily North America. > The vine densely climbs over other plants and trees and grows so rapidly that it smothers and kills them by blocking most of the sunlight and taking root space. The plants are in the genus Pueraria, in t... But a valid point. Cannibalism is a great vector to pick up diseases tailor-made for your own species. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/25 "2023-04-21T23:03:33Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > In terms of protein per calorie, the best is wild caught salmon, followed by low fat mozzarella, and then the various poultry meats. But “ideal” can quite a few different definitions. AIUI, the lowest carbon footprint source is lentils grown near where you live. Umm, why _wild-caught_ salmon in particular? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2023, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/26 "2023-04-21T23:05:54Z")
My WAG: Wild animals tend to be more buff than farm-raised. Having to run (or swim) away from other creatures trying to eat you results in better muscle development. Farm creatures protected by humans don’t have to exert themselves so much. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2023, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/27 "2023-04-21T23:37:15Z")
So, a higher muscle-to-fat ratio (not that I’ve noticed a whole lot of marbling in salmon)? ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2023, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/28 "2023-04-21T23:55:19Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > you had me spinning on the floor Oh my gosh, you guys. Does anyone else remember Halvsie? > [@Halvsie, the two-legged dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/halvsie-the-two-legged-dog/46396): > > It’s that time of year when my mom goes through all the old pictures of years past and displays the Christmas stuff. While helping her, I found a picture of my old dog, a Jack Russell terrier named Halvsie. He was called Halvsie because he only had the two legs on the left side of his body. In other words, half the normal number of legs. Halvsie was a good dog. I trained him to sit, play dead, and roll over. He couldn’t shake, though, cuz when he lifted his front paw he had a tendency to fall f… ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2023, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/29 "2023-04-21T23:57:16Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > So, a higher muscle-to-fat ratio (not that I’ve noticed a whole lot of marbling in salmon)? Possibly. Salmon is a relatively high-fat fish. Salmon doesn’t marble like beef does, though. One is a mammal and the other is a fish, that’s a lot of evolutionary divergence. Heck, birds and reptiles are more closely related to us than fish are and their flesh doesn’t marble like mammal meat, either. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/30 "2023-04-22T18:10:38Z")
When nutritionists speak of protein, they often speak in terms of “bioavailability” - not just whether it has all essential amino acids, but the ability of the body to digest and make use of the protein. This has led to a scale. Eggs are considered the most bioavailable whole food, so they get a score of 100. The only thing higher than that is Whey Protein isolate, which is not a whole food but is derived from such (when making cheese, you separate the “curds and whey”). So, from that perspective, the best source of protein is Whey, but the best whole food source (I.e. not a derived supplement) is the egg. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2023, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/31 "2023-04-22T18:18:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And the big problem with cannibalism is simply one of supply. A human body might contain enough protein to feed a human for a couple of years, but we live for 70 or more. And assuming the population is staying stable, you’ve got about one person born per corpse. What do we eat the other 68 years? Assuming we can get round any potential ethical concerns, how about human printed meat? Clone some cells of your own body and make it into hamburger. Indeed, cells from your own body might eventually be the only animal meat we have an intrinsic right to harvest. If we can’t eat our own flesh, what can we eat? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2023, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/32 "2023-04-22T18:23:23Z")
It’s still a supply problem, because cultured cells still need to eat. No animal (in fact, very few organisms at all) can make protein from scratch. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2023, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/33 "2023-04-22T18:28:58Z")
I assume that feeding cells in vitro is more efficient than feeding a complete human (or a complete meat animal) on agriculturally-produced foodstuffs. For a start you don’t have to supply nutrients to the animal’s skeleton, or its brain, or its CNS, its skin, or toenails. But if it isn’t, it is not really worth doing. I wonder what they feed the HeLa cells on. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/34 "2023-04-22T19:18:01Z")
[Apparently this.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC411365/) [Or this.](https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/hela) [Or this.](https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/product/11875101) It seems there are people who spend time on optimizing their growth. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2023, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/35 "2023-04-22T19:39:30Z")
Thanks - that’s interesting. Cultured meat is grown in bioreactors, bubbling tanks which supply nutrients and gases to the cells. I can imagine an interplanetary or interstellar colony where the colonists are fed primarily on cultured meat, not necessarily from their own cells. But surely some vegetable-based food would also be required, otherwise you might get an overdose of protein. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2023, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/36 "2023-04-22T23:51:08Z")
You also need fiber. So yes, vegetables, too. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2023, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/37 "2023-04-23T01:05:31Z")
My gut feeling is tacos. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/38 "2023-04-29T19:16:39Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > So, from that perspective, the best source of protein is Whey, but the best whole food source (I.e. not a derived supplement) is the egg. It’s important to be clear about the word “whole” when dealing with proteins. AIUI Moriarty is talking about “whole foods” as sources not “whole proteins.” So you can get a lot of amino acids (protein) from beans, but they are not a “whole protein.” Beans don’t contain all the amino acids a human needs to be healthy. If you add rice, however, the rice supplies the missing amino acids, and in combination, you now have a “whole protein.” This matters because there are many inexpensive sources which provide a whole heap of protein, but because it is not a whole protein, it will never be enough. Which leads us to the other important definition, “best.” When researching proteins there are several possible definitions of “best” protein source. Vegans will define that as the most cruelty-free source. Social workers will define it as the lowest-cost widely available source. Muscle magazines will define it as the densest and most bio-available source (see Moriarty’s note above.) Climatologists will point you toward the least carbon-heavy production source. So you really have to begin with your own values and priorities in order to get to the “best” answer. As I said above, my research was all about protein per calorie. That’s because I was hoping to lose weight with as little muscle loss as possible. A very tricky proposition. I am still struggling to build a diet that works for me long term and supports strength into my later years. I fear I may have to join a free-weight gym to make it happen. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/39 "2023-04-29T20:49:23Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > AIUI Moriarty is talking about “whole foods” as sources not “whole proteins.” So you can get a lot of amino acids (protein) from beans, but they are not a “whole protein.” Beans don’t contain all the amino acids a human needs to be healthy. If you add rice, however, the rice supplies the missing amino acids, and in combination, you now have a “whole protein.” Yes, I was talking about “whole food” sources, which is to say things that are in their natural state (e.g. you find them in nature looking like that). The opposite would be “processed foods.” (Aside: Some foods are minimally processed, like steel cut oatmeal or whole grain rice, and are still good nutrition sources. But heavily processed food is that which tends to be loaded with preservatives) In my experience, what you refer to as a “whole protein” is called a “complete protein”. A complete protein is one which contains all essential amino acids- those our body can’t produce on its own. As you noted, beans and rice, together, provide all of the essential amino acids, but neither one is a complete protein. Animal proteins, however, are complete (their drawback tends to be their fat content - chicken, a staple of bodybuilders who care about such things, is relatively lean). ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2023, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145/40 "2023-04-29T23:47:26Z")
Another concern worth noting, - one I only heard of in the past few days - is casein, a milk protein. It turns out that when we digest casein a morphine-like substance is created. The effect is stronger for some people than for others. There are people who are literally physically addicted to cheese (casein = curds). The amount of casein in a normal glass of milk won’t harm anybody, but in concentrated formulas it is wise to be careful of it. Casein is a different protein than whey, and absorbed much more slowly. Whey protein concentrates may not contain casein, but check, and make an informed decision. > **[Casomorphins and Gliadorphins Have Diverse Systemic Effects Spanning Gut,...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8345738/)** > > Food-derived opioid peptides include digestive products derived from cereal and dairy diets. If these opioid peptides breach the intestinal barrier, typically linked to permeability and constrained biosynthesis of dipeptidyl peptidase-4 (DPP4), they... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-ideal-source-of-protein/922145.md?page=3)