# So what is the womens' march supposed to accomplish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 22, 2017, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822 "2017-01-22T13:26:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/61 "2017-01-22T22:38:16Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > My take on the marches: everyone who marched or who supported the marchers was strengthened and given some hope. Everyone wants to know, what the hell can we do next? There are indeed limited avenues. Probably the midterms will be the big chance. Which means we need to start now to recruit and position for them. > > There’s a lot we can do to pressure the media to push against the lying. The administration is helping there by insulting and trying to marginalize the press. Coming from a family of journalists, my guess is this could goad them into finally acquiring some spine. I see quite a bit more spine in the NYT since the inauguration, for example. > > I believe a number of organizations such as Planned Parenthood and the ACLU have received an outpouring of support and money. Bernie Sanders has got an organization already on the ground as well. > > What is heartening to me is that so many of the marchers were older. Men and women. It was not an Occupy crowd at all. It was mostly middle-class middle-aged citizens, predominantly white. These people as a group are not marginalized, naive, idealistic. In other words, they are the class that _doesn’t_ protest, because they are busy doing their moderately successful lives and are pretty much okay with the government. > > The fact that millions of us peaceable mainstream citizens came out in protest is not nothing. I don’t know what will happen but it surely is not nothing. The pro-conservatives are trying to fight back in the only way that they can. “It doesn’t matter, it wont have any effect, it’s childish and futile. Just sit back and let _us_ take care of you.” It’s about time the sleeping giant was awakened. Ignore the propaganda, especially by the mouthpieces for the orange-haired monstrosity (including himself), and keep on plugging. This bullshit can’t happen again. It’ll take long enough to fix what he gets away with for the next two years. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/62 "2017-01-22T22:40:56Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Don’t worry, neither does Lena Dunham, AFAICT. I discussed what appears to be a widespread misinterpretation of Dunham’s remark in [an earlier post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19867419&postcount=13): You’re going far out of your way to find an acceptable way of saying the unacceptable. And far from refuting me, you prove my point. Currently, feminists no longer feel a need to pretend that abortion is a sad, regrettable thing that nobody likes. They don’t believe abortion is anything but an unmitigated good, and have largely quit shedding crocodile tears. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/63 "2017-01-22T22:42:26Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You’re going far out of your way to find an acceptable way of saying the unacceptable. > > And far from refuting me, you prove my point. Currently, feminists no longer feel a need to pretend that abortion is a sad, regrettable thing that nobody likes. They don’t believe abortion is anything but an unmitigated good, and have largely quit shedding crocodile tears. That’s a bizarre takeaway from one actress’s somewhat cryptic comments. You seriously think that Dunham’s comments reflect all feminists, or even a majority of feminists? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/64 "2017-01-22T22:48:54Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You’re going far out of your way to find an acceptable way of saying the unacceptable. > > And far from refuting me, you prove my point. Currently, feminists no longer feel a need to pretend that abortion is a sad, regrettable thing that nobody likes. They don’t believe abortion is anything but an unmitigated good, and have largely quit shedding crocodile tears. Sure glad you know so well what feminists are thinking. As if I didn’t know already, I’m guessing you’re a white man. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/65 "2017-01-22T23:09:26Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You’re going far out of your way to find an acceptable way of saying the unacceptable. :dubious: If you’d bothered to look at the source in my link, you’d see from the quoted follow-up remarks from Dunham that my interpretation was in fact right: > [@Lena Dunham](#): > > I would never, ever intentionally trivialize the emotional and physical challenges of terminating a pregnancy. My only goal is to increase awareness and decrease stigma. [QUOTE=astorian] Currently, feminists no longer feel a need to pretend that abortion is a sad, regrettable thing that nobody likes. They don’t believe abortion is anything but an unmitigated good, and have largely quit shedding crocodile tears. [/QUOTE] Feminists have never been in favor of people _pretending_ to feel more guilt or regret about abortion than they actually do. **It’s okay to feel relieved and happy about having had an abortion because it terminated a pregnancy you didn’t want.** But neither feminists nor anybody else thinks that there’s anything good about an **unwanted pregnancy**. No feminists are encouraging women to undergo unwanted pregnancies just so they can have an abortion, because yay abortions! :rolleyes: That’s ridiculous. So your notion that feminists consider abortion an “unmitigated good” is a complete crock. Feminists in general do consider that abortion is a good solution to a very serious problem: that of unwanted pregnancy. But that doesn’t mean that abortions are good in and of themselves, because the situation that creates the need for abortion in the first place (i.e., unwanted pregnancy) is emphatically **not** good. ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/66 "2017-01-22T23:30:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Currently, feminists no longer feel a need to pretend that abortion is a sad, regrettable thing that nobody likes. They don’t believe abortion is anything but an unmitigated good, and have largely quit shedding crocodile tears. I can’t unwind this to where it makes any sense. I am a feminist and I am in favor of education, birth control, and healthcare for pregnant women as for all. what in the world are you for? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2017, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/67 "2017-01-22T23:51:13Z")
> [@JackieLikesVariety](#): > > I can’t unwind this to where it makes any sense. > I am a feminist and I am in favor of education, birth control, and healthcare for pregnant women as for all. > > what in the world are you for? I think it’s a good guess that the poster you’re responding to is in favor of (a) minimal government and liberty and personal freedom for all (except women, and certainly not pregnant ones), and (b) absolute totalitarian government control of women’s bodies, because somewhere in the Bible it says that sentient human life begins at the instant of conception, and who are you gonna believe, science, or the Bible? :rolleyes: The only way to support such a ludicrous unsupportable position is to claim, as an unassailable axiom, that anyone supporting women’s rights or the value of an adult woman’s life must be a murderous baby-killer who promotes abortion as an enjoyable hobby for all. There is actually some segment of the population that believes this, and unfortunately, instead of being confined to mental institutions they’re actually allowed to vote. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/68 "2017-01-23T00:17:20Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > My take on the marches: everyone who marched or who supported the marchers was strengthened and given some hope. After more than eight years, you’re still clinging to that hope and change nonsense? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/69 "2017-01-23T00:42:47Z")
How’s that “president for all the people” thing working for ya? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/70 "2017-01-23T00:42:57Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > After more than eight years, you’re still clinging to that hope and change nonsense? “More than eight years”? Do you think Obama invented hope or something? I mean, sure, more than eight years. I’ve been clinging to hope since I was aware of the concept. Have you given up all hope, that you’d ask such a question? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/71 "2017-01-23T00:45:12Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > After more than eight years, you’re still clinging to that hope and change nonsense? :dubious: You must be thinking of a different eight years from what I’m thinking of. Although I have a large number of criticisms of Obama as candidate and as President, there were a whole bunch of positive changes that happened under his administration. Such as recovery from the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression, one that had a lot of people around September 2008 sincerely questioning how well the US and world economies would survive it. Such as the restoration of science-focused leadership to federal agencies that deal with scientific issues, and honesty in presenting science issues on government websites. And the provision of universal healthcare coverage in the (in many other ways seriously flawed) Affordable Care Act. Not to mention the Supreme Court decision on marriage equality, and the admission of openly gay servicepeople in the military. And a lot of other things such as the Iran nuclear deal, new technology research, environmental protection, elimination of stem cell research limitations, etc. All these things came along with a bunch of other things that were **not** positive changes, such as continued reliance on executive orders, drone warfare, etc. But for anyone who cares about science, the environment, civil rights, and economic stability, the Obama years were at least way better than the preceding Bush years were, or than the Trump years are shaping up to be. So, sometimes hope does bear fruit. All the more reason to hope (and work) for effective ways to limit the assaults on all those things proposed by the Trump administration. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/72 "2017-01-23T00:53:04Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Not to mention the Supreme Court decision on marriage equality. What did President Obama have to do with the Supreme Court decision? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/73 "2017-01-23T01:00:23Z")
[QUOTE] > [@Kimstu](#): > > :dubious: I was protesting against, among other things: Protesting against so many things dilutes the march. > [@](#): > > - Trump’s disregard of ethics policies in not releasing his tax returns; No law was broken. I can’t imagine this is more than 0.1% of your marching reason. Would you march against Hillary receiving money from a Saudi prince, a country where gays are killed? > [@](#): > > - the threatened repeal of the ACA with no coherent plan whatsoever for an improved replacement; If you like ACA, this is a good reason. DT’s website has interesting answer to the “no coherent plan”. > [@](#): > > - threatened assaults on civil rights such as religion-targeted immigration bans and/or registries, resumption and expansion of torture methods, denial of equal rights to gay/trans people, and voter suppression; Do you oppose any form of targeted immigration bans? I mean, like Canada does? If not, good march, but I can’t see how (good or not) “let all muslims come into the US without limit” is a winning argument in any election or that many people will repeatedly march for it. If he keeps torture to Obama levels, would it be ok? Aside from marriage, I can’t see DT doing anything that could be “denial of equal rigths”. Maybe get the whole bathroom problem solved out before women’s bathroom stop being safe for women. > [@](#): > > - continued attacks on abortion rights; When has DT attacked abortion rights? If he has, kudos for him. Defunding PP will be the target. > [@](#): > > - disregard for and dismantling of government scientific research, and abandonment of science-based policy approaches in favor of corporate-friendly PR, especially on environmental issues; You like Solindra or giving money to Elon Musk for selling cars to rich people? You mean like making nuclear power impossible even if it’s the cleanest? Corporate friendly, you mean like Obama? You mean like electric car with hard-to-recycle, dirtier construction? > [@](#): > > - indifference to police violence and double standards for policing in different communities. Police violence is terrible, of course; I can’t remember him saying anything in favor of it; mostly against protest that destroy public and private (mostly black-owned) property I hope he also work on black-on-black violence, the greatest killers of African-Americans. > [@](#): > > How are any of those concerns “negated” by the mere fact that I was allowed to participate in a legally organized protest march? Very simple. Societies in which people march freely and peacefully don’t go into extremism overnight. People who condone or are indifferent with the violence in the peaceful protests, targeting those against who simply want to go on with their lives, takes away from any good objectives. > [@](#): > > What seems to have happened in your post is that you naively interpreted some of the protest rhetoric to mean that the protestors genuinely believe that we are _literally_ living right now in a fully fascist state under the rule of a _literal_ dictator. This is not actually what (at least the vast majority of) the protestors believe. You are not and you will not even remotely live under a fascist regime under Trump. Even saying it is like those morons the thought Obama was the Kenyan-Muslim-socialist-antichrist. Once you frame any discussion into “Trump is fascist” then it’s clear no debate can happen, because you don’t know what fascist mean. Interestingly enough, most of the signs are either about abortion, generic “love trumps hate”, or Nazi/KKK/Fascist stuff. Sorry, it wasn’t the Montgomery bus boycott. Those guys really went all-in, with actual disruption of their daily lives, for a year. > [@](#): > > Sorry about the signs and slogans giving you too much credit for ability to understand rhetoric and metaphor. Your ability may have atrophied over the years from seeing all those Tea Party signs by poorly-informed conservatives who **did** in fact believe that the Obama administration was _literally_ a socialist communist totalitarian police state where their guns were being confiscated and their children forced to get gay-married. :rolleyes: I can’t remember a single TP sign even when they were a thing, even if I did, they were better than your poor attempt at condescension. I get it, you are sooooo worried sooo well-informed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/74 "2017-01-23T01:20:14Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > I think it’s more useful to regard protests as an expression of public sentiment rather than a driver of it. You’re not going to get policy changes or leadership changes just because a crowd of protesters demands it, but you may get it if it becomes clear that significant numbers of ordinary people are demanding it, and protests help to energize that group and publicize the cause. > > It’s interesting that you claim protests don’t work and then cite the two most famous historical examples where they did. The Vietnam war was ended because it was a horror for a whole multitude of reasons, not just because college kids were being drafted, which reasons eventually led to widespread public opposition. Same with civil rights. It’s true that Johnson was exceptionally effective in getting the legislation passed, but if he had been a weaker president and failed, the public pressure would have kept building until it become inevitable no matter who was in charge. The protests helped accelerate that process, unless you want to argue that MLK and the various famous events of the era had no effect whatsoever. > > OWS is a poor counterexample for several reasons. The organizers haven’t done a very good job of publicizing their mission or articulating a clear focus. Most people wouldn’t be able to tell you what OWS wants and many might be inclined to characterize them as anti-capitalist bums. Even the name is a bit misguided – it seems to suggest “let’s trash Wall Street” as a goal. The second reason it hasn’t done much, IMHO, is that the legitimate aspects of the movement are still in their early embryonic stages. People are only very slowly and gradually beginning to realize that for a long time now, they’ve been had, and that only the top few percent have substantially been sharing in economic growth. And even many of those who realize this put the blame in all the wrong places. Look who the morons just elected. I said they rarely worked, not that the don’t work. And I listed the only 2 examples I could think of in my life experience that resulted in significant policy changes, with one of them iffy as a primary cause. If we had to look at a primary cause, it was probably Walter Cronkite’s famous broadcast. It’s not “interesting” as posted. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/75 "2017-01-23T01:26:30Z")
Missed the edit window: Where “interesting” is used as a synonym for “odd”. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/76 "2017-01-23T01:47:09Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think you misunderstand. A movement can work by changing a party from within, or by widening support for a cause. These marches fail at both. This is a highly reductive view of what protest marches can do. Bringing together people who don’t have the exact same agenda is one of them; you can build momentum first, and focus it later. It’s fair to say the march yesterday included Sanders supporters who didn’t like Hillary and even some anti-Trump conservatives. The early Tea Party was similarly inchoate, and only later became mostly about intra-GOP politics. Galvanizing support is another. Going to a protest or rally -or taking any other concrete action - creates a visceral identification with that movement in a way mere words cannot. People who were not necessarily all that liberal and/or who might have been persuadable for Trump/GOP down the road are now less likely to do so. They’ve worn a hat, carried a sign, identified themselves. Going back on that is a much bigger deal than changing your mind. Again, the Tea Party liked to brag about how many of its members had never been active as before, and they were right to. To the extent these kinds of marches make people think of themselves as committed to a cause, that’s very valuable. ---
**Author:** ![inscrutable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a88e4f/32.png) [@inscrutable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/inscrutable)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/77 "2017-01-23T01:52:18Z")
If only they put half as much effort into getting out the vote for HRC… ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/78 "2017-01-23T01:53:47Z")
Like the Brexit, buyer’s remorse can be painful. Hindsight is too often 20-20. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/79 "2017-01-23T02:35:09Z")
After further reading and reflection, I have some thoughts: 1. Okay, it looks like rather than a women’s march, this is a liberal women’s march, with a manifesto that is basically the Green Party’s platform. Which means it is doomed to irrelevance politically. 2. That does not mean the women’s march isn’t an event of great historical importance. As an expression of solidarity among liberal women and their male allies, it matters in a symbolic sense. 3. It looks like the organizers wanted the march to be a unifying force for ALL women, but it broke down pretty quickly into squabbling over whether one could be pro-life and a feminist. That was a mistake. Those pro-life organizations can bring the marchers and the marches would have been even huger if they’d been allowed to share sponsorship and rally their troops. And it also would have been impossible for conservatives to ignore. Since it degenerated into a strictly liberal women’s march, we are free to ignore it now. It poses zero threat to us politically. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2017, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822/80 "2017-01-23T03:33:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > After further reading and reflection, I have some thoughts: > > 1. Okay, it looks like rather than a women’s march, this is a liberal women’s march, with a manifesto that is basically the Green Party’s platform. Which means it is doomed to irrelevance politically. > > 2. That does not mean the women’s march isn’t an event of great historical importance. As an expression of solidarity among liberal women and their male allies, it matters in a symbolic sense. > > 3. It looks like the organizers wanted the march to be a unifying force for ALL women, but it broke down pretty quickly into squabbling over whether one could be pro-life and a feminist. That was a mistake. Those pro-life organizations can bring the marchers and the marches would have been even huger if they’d been allowed to share sponsorship and rally their troops. And it also would have been impossible for conservatives to ignore. Since it degenerated into a strictly liberal women’s march, we are free to ignore it now. It poses zero threat to us politically. Once again, how kind of you to offer leftists your advice! If only the women’s march were more open to conservatives, you opine, and less progressive, it would be able to accomplish your–excuse me, I mean their–goals! Thanks, man. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-is-the-womens-march-supposed-to-accomplish/777822.md?page=5)