# So what kind of wizard is Gandalf, anyway? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2004, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252 "2004-01-02T08:41:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/21 "2004-01-02T22:22:42Z")
Maybe it would help to see Gandalf as an avatar of a greater being and constrained to an extent by the “rules of operation” of the form he has taken. Even were he not constrained by the will of his masters, the form itself would impose some limitations. For example, he may be perfectly able to toss fireballs, but aside from the edicts of the Valar forbidding this, his hands would quickly be burned to a crisp if he kept it up for any length of time. Of course I may be barking up the wrong tree here… ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/22 "2004-01-02T22:28:11Z")
I noticed in the movie of Return Of The King (haven’t read the book yet) that Gandalf is addressed more than once as “mithrandir,” or however it’s spelled. Anyone know what that means? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/23 "2004-01-02T22:31:53Z")
Mithrandir is Sindarin; it means “grey wanderer”. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/24 "2004-01-02T22:32:55Z")
The OP reminds me of the **Dork Tower** comic strip (which I can’t find online) where Igor, Ken, and Carson the Muskrat get to play the RPG version of _The Lord of the Rings._ Carson is given Gandalf to play, and the others are excited to have him on their side… until they learn that Gandalf’s powers consist of (1) talking to animals, (2) casting fireworks, and (3) spoiling beer. The players eventually make the best of the situation by using Gandalf as a portable battering ram/shield. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/25 "2004-01-02T22:33:52Z")
I hear he is a wonderful wiz, if ever a wiz there was. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/26 "2004-01-02T22:38:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Insomnomad \* > \*\*This is just a minor nitpick, but Gandalf fought the wolves somewhere in the Misty Mountains in _The Hobbit_, not outside of Moria in FOTR. \*\* Actually, Gandalf battles Wargs in _both_ the Hobbit and FOTR outside Moria. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2004, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/27 "2004-01-02T22:44:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ponder Stibbons \* > \*\*Well, let’s see. Gandalf does in a _bal_rog and is handy with orbs (e.g., the palantir). I guess that counts him out as being a Washington Wizard. 😉 \*\* Hmmm…that would be the _ballhog_ from _Bored of the Rings_. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/28 "2004-01-03T00:04:39Z")
You know…it’s funny when people say things like “ALL he can do is create some pyrotechnics” or “JUST move small objects” or “ONLY create light.” Try doing any of that stuff!! Even just a little!! If a wizard could create 20 Megaton blasts from his wand or turn armies into salt, there wouldn’t be a need of a story, would there? Gandalf, Suaron and Suruman would just hurl city-destroying fireballs at each other until everything was destroyed! While I’m thinking about it, what GREAT POWER did the ring have? It made the average wearer an invisible crack-head which is not really that much of a strategic advantage against 200,000 troops. For Sauron, it seemed to let him stomp around like Gigantor ans conrol the Nazgul, but it didn’t make him invulnurable or anything. ---
**Author:** ![SpartanDC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@SpartanDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpartanDC)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/29 "2004-01-03T00:21:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*While I’m thinking about it, what GREAT POWER did the ring have? It made the average wearer an invisible crack-head which is not really that much of a strategic advantage against 200,000 troops. For Sauron, it seemed to let him stomp around like Gigantor ans conrol the Nazgul, but it didn’t make him invulnurable or anything. \*\* Having only seen the movies, I get the impression that only someone who is extremely powerful can use the ring’s powers. Otherwise, all it does is corrupt the wearer in an effort to get it back into Sauron’s hands. In the hands of someone properly powerful enough (e.g. Gandalf, Sauron) the person could rule over any lesser being through fear and persuasion, especially by using the lesser rings as a conduit. Thankfully, that didn’t work for the elves and, apparently, some of the men, who formed the Last Alliance. But even in the hands of someone good, The One Ring can only destroy, and it would. And that is its power: unless it is destroyed, it will eventually, somehow, destroy everything else. SPOILER That is why the end is one of the best examples of literary irony out there: The only thing the ring permanently destroys is itself. ---
**Author:** ![Zcrysis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zcrysis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zcrysis)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/30 "2004-01-03T01:11:32Z")
In Moria Gandalf uses a word of Command to stop the Balrog opening the gate. What exactly does a word of Command entail and why did JRRT capitalise it? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/31 "2004-01-03T01:23:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zcrysis \* > \*\*In Moria Gandalf uses a word of Command to stop the Balrog opening the gate. What exactly does a word of Command entail and why did JRRT capitalise it? \*\* Well, when you’re part of the crew that built the world, a word of Command is basically telling matter/energy/reality how to behave. So Gandalf was a bit surprised to discover something else giving those kinds of orders too. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/32 "2004-01-03T01:37:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\*Gandalf is an Ainur, a being who sprang fully formed from the mind of The Creator, and existed before the making of the world or even the creation of time. So was the Balrog. So was Morgoth, and Sauron, and Saruman. And Radaghast. All the Ainur actually took part in the creation of the world. > > \*\* Excellent point that many part-time LOTR fans are not aware of. I would like to point out, though, that not all Ainur are equal in strength and ability. The [Valar](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/v/valar.html) arrr! more powerful than the [Maiar](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/maiar.html). Also, there appear to be ranks among these types, some Valar and Maiar being more powerful and/or able than others of their ilk. Some relevant stats for who is what: Lords of the Valar Manwë Súlimo Ulmo Aulë the Smith Oromë Mandos (Námo) Lórien (Irmo) Tulkas Astaldo Queens of the Valar (Valier) Varda Elentári Yavanna Kementári Nienna Estë the Gentle Vairë the Weaver Vána the Ever-young Nessa [The Fifteenth Vala?](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/v/valar.html) Melkor (Morgoth) > [@](#): > > It seems that, in the distant beginnings of the World, there were fifteen Valar; Melkor was certainly the most powerful of the all the spirits that descended into Arda, and was said to have been the ‘brother’ of Manwë. However, due to his corrupt nature, he was apparently expelled from the order. We are told in the _Valaquenta_ that he is “…counted no longer among the Valar…”, which strongly suggests that at one point he had been. [Some Maiar of the Thrid Age in Middle Earth](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/maiar.html) Saruman Sauron (originally of Aulë’s people) Olórin (Gandalf) ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/33 "2004-01-03T01:51:41Z")
Again I ask…where does all of this stuff NOT mentioned in the LotR trilogy come from? And is it JRRT endorsed? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/34 "2004-01-03T01:59:21Z")
Mostly from the _Silmarillion_. I imagine some comes from the volumes of HOMES (History of Middle-Earth), which consists of 12 volumes at last publication. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/35 "2004-01-03T02:00:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Carnage \* > \*\*Again I ask…where does all of this stuff NOT mentioned in the LotR trilogy come from? And is it JRRT endorsed? \*\* Click on the links for the Encyclopeadia of Arda. Books include _Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, The Hobbit,_ and some published letters/diaries/worksheets/etc… ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/36 "2004-01-03T02:07:11Z")
[A list of books available](http://www.houghtonmifflinbooks.com/features/lordoftheringstrilogy/historyofme.shtml) (a nit on myself: Lost tales, not Unfinished! :smack: ) ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/37 "2004-01-03T02:31:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Insomnomad \* > \*\*This is just a minor nitpick, but Gandalf fought the wolves somewhere in the Misty Mountains in _The Hobbit_, not outside of Moria in FOTR. \*\* My advice to you is to bring your copy of _Fellowship of the Ring_ back to the store you got it and exchange it for a new copy because it seems to be missing some pages. Specifically, at the beginning of the chapter “A Journey in the Dark” it describes an attack on the Fellowship by a pack of Wargs (wolves) after their attempt on Redhorn Gate but before they enter Moria. It is on pages 311 and 312 of my Houghton Mifflin 2nd edition (hardcover). The specific passage I had in mind was this one: "Stooping like a cloud, (Gandalf) lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder. ‘_Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!_’ he cried. There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light…" ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/38 "2004-01-03T02:33:55Z")
Get a clue, **noclueboy**! Trust in yourself!! You were right the first time. JRRT (actually son CJRT) gave us Unfinished Tales and The Book of Lost Tales Volumes I & II! And while the Encyclopedia of Arda is a very useful website, it is not without its flaws. Lots of stuff that went on in HOMES still hasn’t found its way into that site. Try [Annals of Arda](http://www.annalsofarda.dk/) sometime. Interesting stuff, if a bit tougher to navigate. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/39 "2004-01-03T03:35:36Z")
Silly me. It’s sitting right there on my bookshelf, too. But, I trusted a web site instead. As an excuse: I am world weary, and I long to see again the shores of the undying lands… ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2004, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252/40 "2004-01-03T04:39:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Laughing Lagomorph \* > \*\*"Stooping like a cloud, (Gandalf) lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder. > ‘_Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!_’ he cried. > > There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with a dazzling light…" \*\* It was after they had turned back from Caradhras, and before entering the west gate of Moria. Sam comments, “Wolves won’t get him [Gandalf]. That was an eye-opener, and no mistake! Nearly singed the hair off my head!” The three screenwriters did like to take snippets of dialogue and move them around to suit the movie version. DD [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-kind-of-wizard-is-gandalf-anyway/222252.md?page=3)