# So, what should Americans be retraining for? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026 "2011-03-26T01:48:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/61 "2011-03-27T18:23:43Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > And that is why your response is so shallow. It militantly refuses to take into account the fact that with the level of unemployment we have, these fields are going to be saturated with qualified applicants. 4 out of 5 retrainees in these Top Growth Industries _will be in a deeper hole than if they didn’t retrain for them_. If you had any idea of the concept of mathematics you’d understand that. We didn’t study fractions in my engineering level calc classes.☹ > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > I know this is too complex for the Dope forum but I’ll say it anyway: _America’s unemployed workers need more than just training._ They need a program to allow them to look for work elsewhere in other countries. They’ll earn more out there than they will sitting on our streets panhandling. Well, marginally more, considering the pay differential. But again, having a job in China or India beats panhandling _anywhere_. L:DL Which magical country do you think people will find greater job opportunities in? Maybe they should all train to be PickUp Artists? You seemed to like the idea in another thread. At least they will be getting laid so much they won’t care about being unemployed! ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/62 "2011-03-27T18:26:03Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > The economy is likely to improve in two years. If a training school can verify a 90 percent placement rate now, it will probably get better in two years. I doubt that many if any training schools can verify a 90 percent placement ratio, however. The economy is producing a glut of low-paying crap jobs and will be producing this by majority for years to come. Rising oil and food prices will wipe out people caught in those jobs while misguided economists claim that inflation is low and the cost of living isn’t going up. (Fat lot of good that does for the increasing throngs of people who will be working as Wal Mart greeters and can’t afford to drive to work or buy the food there.) (It’s called “the definition of inflation is sheer idiocy”, and people are in fact waking up to that fact.) > [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > It is tempting to extrapolate current trends indefinitely into the future, but it can be misleading. Ross Perot warned of “giant sucking sound” of jobs leaving the United States if NAFTA was passed during the presidential campaign of 1992. During June of 1992 unemployment reached 7.8 percent. > > Clinton supported NAFTA. It went into effect January 1, 1994. By then unemployment had declined to 6.6 percent. By December 2000 unemployment had declined to 3.9 percent. It had not been that low since the late 1960s. The job losses caused by NAFTA were offset by other massive job-creating emerging industries, an unrelated factor that would have been there with or without NAFTA. Now we are facing “emerging” industries that are not in any way big job creators. > [@](#): > > It is true that corporations are making record profits while most Americans are unemployed, or earn pay checks that buy less than they did when Clinton left office. This is a Democrat issue, but the Democrats will need to devise plausible, and workable solutions. No one will give them that issue. Good luck with that. The GOP will obstruct them as much as possible just to make them fail. They’re trying to gut the entire working class and touch off a fire sale of America to the rich. If the Democrats fail we will quite literally become like Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/63 "2011-03-27T18:33:11Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Which magical country do you think people will find greater job opportunities in? Corporations added a million jobs overseas during this recession. I guess all that was magical, right? Find out where they’re hiring and send all our unemployed there. It beats living in homeless camps here. Oh wait, India and China are smarter than us. They’re protectionist. They’ll close their borders if Americans start flooding there looking for work… > [@](#): > > Maybe they should all train to be PickUp Artists? You seemed to like the idea in another thread. At least they will be getting laid so much they won’t care about being unemployed! They’d be better off plying their skills in Asia or Africa than here. Or maybe Australia. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/64 "2011-03-27T18:59:07Z")
Train for waiting on and servicing the super rich. That will give you a chance to survive. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/65 "2011-03-27T19:05:28Z")
[QUOTE=Le Jacquelope] Corporations added a million jobs overseas during this recession. I guess all that was magical, right? Find out where they’re hiring and send all our unemployed there. It beats living in homeless camps here. [/QUOTE] Assuming you didn’t just pull that number out of your ass, it begs the question…what kinds of jobs? Good, well paying jobs, or low wage high volume jobs? Of course, you don’t say, since it would hurt your argument to point out that a million jobs were added for folks making $.50/hour… > [@](#): > > Oh wait, India and China are smarter than us. They’re protectionist. They’ll close their borders if Americans start flooding there looking for work… Dude, get serious. You REALLY think that American’s are going to leave the country in droves to take up jobs in China or India paying less than $5000/year??? You need to take a reality break from your rhetoric. -XT ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/66 "2011-03-27T19:09:30Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Good luck with that. The GOP will obstruct them as much as possible just to make them fail. They’re trying to gut the entire working class and touch off a fire sale of America to the rich. If the Democrats fail we will quite literally become like Mexico. Economic inequality grew during the last quarter of the nineteenth century, the 1920s, and again during the 1980s. Nevertheless, most Americans advanced somewhat economically, so most did not care that the rich advanced much more than they did. Most Americans have lost ground economically since 2000 while the rich are richer than ever before. That has never happened in the United States before. I do not believe it is politically sustainable. Nevertheless, the Republicans might be able to hang on by pitting the white have littles against the black and brown have nots. This was a nightmare scenario envisioned by Michael Harrington in his 1968 book, Toward a Democratic Left. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/67 "2011-03-27T19:12:20Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > They’re short of truck drivers again. They almost always are. > > You didn’t really want an answer, I know, but it’s true. The shortage went away for a bit in 2009, but they’re again short of drivers. Have been for years. Though it can pay well, it’s not a glory job so they don’t seem to attract enough talent. I thought about being a truck driver. I don’t get people looking down on it. It looks like an awesome job. You get paid big bucks to go on a road trip. What could be more awesome? The thing that convinced me to look at other things is a realistic appraisal of myself. Behind the wheel of a car I’m a safe driver. I keep track, I drive like masters play chess, several moves a head and looking for any possible thing that could something stupid. However I also have ADD. Once the novelty of seeing the country wore off I just don’t have the attention span to be behind the wheel for 14 hours a day safely. Much worse is if I ended up taking the same routes over and over again. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/68 "2011-03-27T19:28:06Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Economic inequality grew during the last quarter of the nineteenth century, the 1920s, and again during the 1980s. Nevertheless, most Americans advanced somewhat economically, so most did not care that the rich advanced much more than they did. > > Most Americans have lost ground economically since 2000 while the rich are richer than ever before. That has never happened in the United States before. I do not believe it is politically sustainable. Nevertheless, the Republicans might be able to hang on by pitting the white have littles against the black and brown have nots. This was a nightmare scenario envisioned by Michael Harrington in his 1968 book, Toward a Democratic Left. That looks like an interesting read. How well has it aged over all in relevance? ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/69 "2011-03-27T21:23:42Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > That being, if you retrain for a ${growing field} you are guaranteed to be walking into a heavily impacted field when you’re done. Guaranteed. Because there are far more workers than there are jobs, and this is going to be true _into perpetuity._ It may be 7 million down the line instead of 16 million but 7 million people out of work still means at least 2-3 people fighting for the job you’re trying out for. Which means 1 or 2 of you must go home unemployed. The math dictates that. No amount of platitudes erases the fact that at the peak of this joke of a recovery 1 to 2 out of 3 applicants WILL go without a job no matter all the training in God’s universe. Nowadays? 4 out of 5 people must stay jobless no matter what they retrain into. No. Matter. WHAT. No problem. I’ve been competing with 3 or 4 other people for positions my whole life. I’ve always won. Because I’m better than those I compete with; I’m smarter than them; I’m more productive than them. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/70 "2011-03-27T21:26:15Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > And that is why your response is so shallow. It militantly refuses to take into account the fact that with the level of unemployment we have, these fields are going to be saturated with qualified applicants. 4 out of 5 retrainees in these Top Growth Industries _will be in a deeper hole than if they didn’t retrain for them_. If you had any idea of the concept of mathematics you’d understand that. Some fields that have high demand can never be “saturated with qualified applicants” because there simply aren’t enough people that are smart enough to become qualified. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/71 "2011-03-27T21:33:50Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > That looks like an interesting read. How well has it aged over all in relevance? It has been awhile since I have read Michael Harrington’s Toward a Democratic Left in its entirety. As you may know, Harrington’s The Other America inspired the war on poverty. In Toward a Democratic Left Harrington considers the possibility that the Republican Party and the upper class would succeed in pitting white blue collar workers against poor blacks, but he does not think it is likely. Of course, it did happen. The white working class became a Republican constituency that has been essential to the Republican domination of the United States, which really began with Richard Nixon’s presidential victory in 1968. Like nearly everyone on the left at the time Harrington overestimated the political power and durability of the student movement. He did not realize that it was an unusual development caused by the War in Vietnam, and that it would collapse as soon as the draft ended. Harrington only barely mentions the popularity of George Wallace, although an understanding of that popularity is essential to understanding the direction the United States moved in during and after 1968. In its understanding of where the United States was going in and why, Toward a Democratic Left is about as empty as The Greening of America, by Charles Reich. Two books written at about the same time that understand what was happening at the time and where the United States was going are The Emerging Republican Majority, by Kevin Phillips, and The Real Majority, by Ben Wattenberg and Richard M. Scammon. Phillips accurately predicted that the civil rights legislation and the war on poverty would cause white workers to leave the Democrat Party for the GOP. Wattenberg and Scammon dispel the liberal myth that if Bobby Kennedy had not been assassinated in 1968 he would have been elected president. Of the three Democrat candidates - Kennedy, Eugene McCarthy, and Hubert Humphrey - the only one who was ever ahead of Richard Nixon in the polls was Humphrey, and that was rare. In 1968 the Democratic New Deal coalition was breaking up, and the Democrat Party was in serious trouble that Harrington and Reich preferred not to see. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/72 "2011-03-27T21:48:14Z")
The youth movement was alive and well during Obama’s run. They were not fired up in other elections. Perhaps they will get fired up by corporate destruction of America’s future. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/73 "2011-03-27T21:55:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The youth movement was alive and well during Obama’s run. They were not fired up in other elections. Perhaps they will get fired up by corporate destruction of America’s future. We can only hope. Nevertheless, the best students at the best universities can still get get good jobs, even though most of their contemporaries cannot. During the War in Vietnam the best students at the best universities were threatened by the draft and the possibility of combat duty. That gave them a personal reason to become involved in left wing politics that does not exist now. A mass movement needs intelligent leaders. It should make its members feel altruistic and principled, but there needs to be a payoff. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/74 "2011-03-27T22:05:10Z")
> [@randy054](#): > > [DUMPERT - Nieuwe tsunami footage](http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1416681/71a8dbc9/nieuwe_tsunami_footage.html) > [@randy054](#): > > Wall Street offers no redeeming qualities to the human race and would be better if it was wiped out. If you’d only said this once, I probably would have ignored it (most other posters evidently did you the favor of ignoring your comment). Since you’ve now posted it twice and been so explicit, I will tell you officially: you are being a jerk. Stop it immediately. > [@msmith537](#): > > It must seem that way, since you are obviously a fucking moron. This is not appropriate for the SDMB, **msmith537**. You’ve been here long enough to know that. Knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![humanafterall](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/humanafterall/32/19654_2.png) [@humanafterall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/humanafterall)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/75 "2011-03-27T23:09:46Z")
Things in this country could get better if a disaster did occur in the US, somewhere in the range of a zombie virus that our government hides from us until it’s too late, and most of the US population is brought to a small corner of the country to survive and rebuild. Jobs like welder, plumber, construction worker, electrician, HVAC, gain importance over jobs like Network Analyst, Collator, and CEO. and people with MBA’s and BBA’s would have to learn from certified electricians and plumbers and general laborers, so that they can help rebuild. What is left of our government would have to rethink the budget and acquire resources according to what the remains of the American Public really needs. Recycling would become the most important activity, and people would become more and more thrifty. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/76 "2011-03-27T23:15:44Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > It must seem that way, since you are obviously a fucking moron. Actually, American would be a LOT better off without Wall Street as it is now constituted. It’s basically a gambling den where they use the bank deposits of American citizens as chips. They are very good gamblers, but sooner or later, they always lose, and when they lose, they lose big. And so do we. See: great recession. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/77 "2011-03-28T00:45:30Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > My problem with Obama is that many of us (myself included) were dumb enough to think he actually meant what he said on the campaign about taking on plutocratic interests in the financial and health care industry. The naivete of youth. > > There is a really funny campaign ad Obama did in 2008 about Billy Tauzen, complaining about backroom deals and lobbyists, then he invites the same guy to the white house for a backroom deal giving tens of billions in deals to pharma for not opposing the health reform bill. > > [http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/once-obama039s-target-lobbyist-tauzin-now-his-pet](http://washingtonexaminer.com/politics/once-obama039s-target-lobbyist-tauzin-now-his-pet) Yeah Obama has been a disappointment. I’m sorry to every Hillary supporter that I disagreed with. A lot of them said that this is EXACTLY what would happen. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/78 "2011-03-28T00:49:04Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > It does not appear that training is necessary. Currently we need to bring in over a million additional immigrants each year to fill all the job openings. Over a million new additional immigrants each year, year after year, all seem to get jobs, and for the most part, most of the millions of new immigrants are not really trained, nor do they have job skills, nor are they educated. If millions of uneducated, unskilled, untrained, third world immigrants can continually find jobs, then those jobs must be out there. > > Bottom line: we seem to continue to have an abundant surplus/over-supply of available unfilled jobs, and the evidence says that those jobs don’t need training. You may be right when it comes to things like construction but you are entirely off base when it comes to agricultural workers. If we didn’t employ the cheap labor, people would simply start growing Oranges in Brazil and shit like that. Agriculture is one of those things that can be outsourced (at least with respect to stuff like fruits and vegetables that need to be hand picked (I don’t see America losing out to anyone on grains)). ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/79 "2011-03-28T00:52:20Z")
> [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](#): > > Tax cuts for the rich don’t lead to jobs for the unemployed. When employers only hire people who already have jobs and years of specific experience, there is little point in learning a new skill. > > When Barack Obama was inaugurated his approval rating was close to 70 percent. Then he should have done what Roosevelt did: he should have raised the top tax rate and hired people at government expense. Those people would have spent their pay checks on goods and services. The need to supply these goods and services would have induced employers to hire more people, lowering the unemployment rate further. > > Instead, Obama forced through a health plan most Americans do not seem to like. This was his critical mistake, and the one that may prolong the Great Recession, and the Republican ascendancy. Yeah, I don’t know how he biffed that so badly. To spend all his political capital on health care reform rather than getting us out of the recession and putting a leash back on wall street. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026/80 "2011-03-28T01:02:51Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah, I don’t know how he biffed that so badly. To spend all his political capital on health care reform rather than getting us out of the recession and putting a leash back on wall street. Obama clearly underestimated the severity of the economic situation. He seemed to think that because he was a Democrat unemployment was going to magically go down like it did when Bill Clinton was elected. Obama was not elected president because the electorate moved to the left, but because most Americans did not benefit from the Bush economy, and because Bush started two expensive wars the could not win. Obama could have moved the country to the left, but first he had to establish his credibility by cleaning up the mess George W. Bush left him. He needed to achieve successful conclusions to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and he needed to restore the good economic numbers of Bill Clinton’s second term. If he could achieve that during his first term, he could have worked on health care during his second term. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-americans-be-retraining-for/576026.md?page=5)