# So what should be the Democrats' version of "Make America Great Again?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 8, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734 "2017-07-08T02:36:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![snoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@snoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snoe)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/221 "2017-07-18T19:16:16Z")
**Make America Great Again - For Real This Time** ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/222 "2017-07-18T19:58:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > What if they [give](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/03/trump-pentagon-military-budget-spending-charts/) > [more](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnists/2017/03/03/military-need-spending/98667058/) > [than](http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/18/congress-again-buys-abrams-tanks-army-doesnt-want.html) [the](http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1998-07-24/news/9807230522_1_130j-air-force-air-national-guard) [military](http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/01/28/pentagon-tells-congress-to-stop-buying-equipment-it-doesnt-need.html) [requests](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/9/lawmakers-force-pentagon-to-buy-tanks-keep-ships-a/)[?](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/the-end-of-the-tank-the-army-says-it-doesnt-need-it-but-industry-wants-to-keep-building-it/2014/01/31/c11e5ee0-60f0-11e3-94ad-004fefa61ee6_story.html?utm_term=.0e58e26180cb) Does that make them more patriotic? If the Dems are trying to give them only what is requested by the pentagon, and the republicans are trying to give them more, does that really mean that the republicans are honoring the military more? > > IMHO, the increases to military spending are because it benefits those with military bases and/or contractors in their districts, and these bases and industries tend to be in republican districts. Republicans are voting to bring dollars home to their district, and it has nothing to do with patriotism or a desire to ensure that the military is properly equipped. This is not a bad thing, it means that money gets to go where it is deemed needed by the representatives willing to trade their votes out for the funding, so it is actually a very efficient way of redistributing wealth to the areas that need it the most, but patriotic, not so much. I don’t think I claimed it made Republicans more patriotic, or that they are “honoring” the military more through their funding enthusiasm. But if a discussion of comparative patriotism excites you, perhaps you’d like to try your hand at responding to my post #190? **ElvisL1ves** hasn’t been back to respond yet. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/223 "2017-07-18T19:58:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you don’t want to derail it, don’t characterize the positions of Democrats in false and hyper partisan language. And what about the constant characterization of republican positions in false and hyper partisan language? Funny, on a board that is supposed to be about fighting ignorance (HA!) how no one really give a shit about that… Slee ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/224 "2017-07-18T20:20:44Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t think I claimed it made Republicans more patriotic, or that they are “honoring” the military more through their funding enthusiasm. > > But if a discussion of comparative patriotism excites you, perhaps you’d like to try your hand at responding to my post #190? **ElvisL1ves** hasn’t been back to respond yet. There was some kind of point you were trying to make by pointing out that Democratic legislators were less likely to vote for a military funding bill. But, I’ll go back a few pages, and take a gander. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m not equating patriotism with anything. Let’s just focus on the last sentence in the cite: > > They “called _themselves_” extremely patriotic. I’m not trying to foist my definition of patriotism on Democrats (or anyone else) here. They defined it however they liked in their own mind, and then decided if their own definition applied to them or not. Only 20 percent decided it did, as opposed to 52 percent of Republicans. Given that fact, do you think it’s fair to say that Democrats are less “patriotic” than Republicans? I do, because _they_ told us they were. I took a look around, trying to find the poll that you took this from to get better context, lots of polls, and not sure from where this one you chose to pick numbers from came. What does “extremely patriotic” mean? I take patriotic to mean loving your country in spite of its flaws, with a desire to fix those flaws, and “extremely patriotic” to mean loving your country as is, and not acknowledging the flaws that it has. With that context in mind, if someone asked me if I were “extremely patriotic”, I would answer ‘no’, but to “normally patriotic” I would answer 'yes". IMHO, "people who are “extremely patriotic” are often going to be more harmful to society, as they insist that society bends to the idea of following their examples of “patriotism.” If you could link to the survey, it would be great to get a bit more context. If nothing else, I would group all of those who responded positively like “Somewhat patriotic”, “normal patriotic” and “extremely patriotic” as all being patriotic, and only group those who responded negatively, “not very patriotic”, “not patriotic at all”, and “I hate my country with the fire of a million suns” as being “not patriotic”. If you look at the survey that you chose to pick the numbers from, how do those numbers add up? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/225 "2017-07-18T20:26:28Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > And what about the constant characterization of republican positions in false and hyper partisan language? > > Funny, on a board that is supposed to be about fighting ignorance (HA!) how no one really give a shit about that… > > Slee Sure, that happens too. Call it out when you see it and ask people justify or retract their remarks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/226 "2017-07-18T20:29:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Sure, that happens too. Call it out when you see it and ask people justify or retract their remarks. Right – it does happen. Please call it out. I’m sure I’m more sensitive to bullshit accusations when it comes from the “other side”, as are most people, but I’ll do my best to criticize such nonsense whether I recognize it at the moment or it’s pointed out to me later. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/227 "2017-07-18T20:41:00Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > There was some kind of point you were trying to make by pointing out that Democratic legislators were less likely to vote for a military funding bill. > > But, I’ll go back a few pages, and take a gander. > > I took a look around, trying to find the poll that you took this from to get better context, lots of polls, and not sure from where this one you chose to pick numbers from came. > > What does “extremely patriotic” mean? I take patriotic to mean loving your country in spite of its flaws, with a desire to fix those flaws, and “extremely patriotic” to mean loving your country as is, and not acknowledging the flaws that it has. > > With that context in mind, if someone asked me if I were “extremely patriotic”, I would answer ‘no’, but to “normally patriotic” I would answer 'yes". IMHO, "people who are “extremely patriotic” are often going to be more harmful to society, as they insist that society bends to the idea of following their examples of “patriotism.” > > If you could link to the survey, it would be great to get a bit more context. If nothing else, I would group all of those who responded positively like “Somewhat patriotic”, “normal patriotic” and “extremely patriotic” as all being patriotic, and only group those who responded negatively, “not very patriotic”, “not patriotic at all”, and “I hate my country with the fire of a million suns” as being “not patriotic”. > > If you look at the survey that you chose to pick the numbers from, how do those numbers add up? I didn’t have the survey at first, just the article I linked to. It was a fairly quick response to **ElvisL1ves** ’s needling over my use of the word “yet”, but since you asked, I’ve done some digging and it appears that the numbers come from [this Gallup survey](http://www.gallup.com/poll/141110/one-three-americans-extremely-patriotic.aspx). The particular question was: > [@](#): > > How patriotic are you? Would you say extremely patriotic, very patriotic, somewhat patriotic, or not especially patriotic? The relevant responses are as follows: **Republicans** : 52% extremely patriotic 39% very patriotic 9% somewhat patriotic less than 0.5% not especially patriotic **Democrats** : 20% extremely patriotic 42% very patriotic 26% somewhat patriotic 11% not especially patriotic Personally I don’t see any reasonable way to parse those results that doesn’t show Democrats as generally less patriotic than Republicans, but I suspect this result is at least somewhat annoying / angering to some people. I’m open to entertaining theories on why this view might be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/228 "2017-07-18T21:10:53Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I didn’t have the survey at first, just the article I linked to. It was a fairly quick response to **ElvisL1ves** ’s needling over my use of the word “yet”, but since you asked, I’ve done some digging and it appears that the numbers come from [this Gallup survey](http://www.gallup.com/poll/141110/one-three-americans-extremely-patriotic.aspx). The particular question was: > > The relevant responses are as follows: > > **Republicans** : > 52% extremely patriotic > 39% very patriotic > 9% somewhat patriotic > less than 0.5% not especially patriotic > **Democrats** : > 20% extremely patriotic > 42% very patriotic > 26% somewhat patriotic > 11% not especially patriotic > > Personally I don’t see any reasonable way to parse those results that doesn’t show Democrats as generally less patriotic than Republicans, but I suspect this result is at least somewhat annoying / angering to some people. I’m open to entertaining theories on why this view might be wrong. I’ll give you the 11%. Apparently, there are 11% of democrats that do not consider themselves to be patriotic, by their definition of the word. IMHO, I think that many of them have the same feelings towards the US that those who answered in the affirmative do, but personally equate patriotism with jingoism, especially given the political climate at the time of the survey, and therefore decline that answer. But, we end up with 99.5% of R’s considering themselves to be patriotic, vs 89% of D’s. You should assume that any particular D you were dealing with was a patriot, in that case, as there is only a 11% chance that the one you are dealing with answered in the negative. I would consider that the majority of the reasons for the difference is a difference in definitions. A republican is asked if they are “extremely patriotic”, and hears “do you love your country?”, a D is asked the same thing, and hears “Do you believe that your country can do no wrong?” D’s out number R’s on “very patriotic”, and “somewhat patriotic” take up the bulk of the rest. I would personally be wavering between “very and somewhat”. I also note that this poll is from 2010, which is likely about as current as it gets, as the previous one was 2005, but it should be noted that the political landscape has changed a bit in the last 7+ years, and those poll results do not necessarily reflect current thoughts, 2010, after 8 years of bush, the wars, the recession, controversy over torture, and such, I may have answered less enthusiastically than I would now. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/229 "2017-07-18T21:21:18Z")
It’s that word, “extremely”. Its like, loaded. Totally loaded. “Extremely patriotic”? What does that even mean? “Extremist” is largely used as a pejorative, but “extreme patriot” is not? “Jingoist” is clearly pejorative, an insult, can anybody tell me how to know the difference? This was a stupidly done poll. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/230 "2017-07-18T21:22:32Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > You should assume that any particular D you were dealing with was a patriot, in that case, as there is only a 11% chance that the one you are dealing with answered in the negative. I agree and I do (about everyone, not just Democrats), unless they give me some reason to believe otherwise. > [@k9bfriender](#): > > I also note that this poll is from 2010, which is likely about as current as it gets, as the previous one was 2005, but it should be noted that the political landscape has changed a bit in the last 7+ years, and those poll results do not necessarily reflect current thoughts, 2010, after 8 years of bush, the wars, the recession, controversy over torture, and such, I may have answered less enthusiastically than I would now. That’s a fair point. I wish Gallup asked the “How patriotic are you?” question more frequently. I like this particular questions because it allows the respondent to decide for themselves what their own definition of “patriotism” is. As a bonus, it sidesteps a whole slew of anticipated arguments about whether “love your country” or “pride in your country” questions are an accurate measurement of patriotism. This one is just self-identified Rs, self-identified Ds, and self-identified patriotism. There are other, more recent polls by Gallup, such as this one ([Gallup: Sharply Fewer Democrats Say They Are Proud to Be Americans](http://www.gallup.com/poll/207614/sharply-fewer-democrats-say-proud-americans.aspx)), but I didn’t want to get sidetracked in a debate about whether “proud to be an American” is the same thing as “patriotic” or not. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/231 "2017-07-18T21:23:46Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This was a stupidly done poll. I think you’re over-analyzing it, but do you have a better-done poll you’d like to offer up as a rebuttal? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/232 "2017-07-18T21:43:38Z")
My point is that the poll was poorly worded, hence, it does not qualify as reliable evidence. I am not obliged to provide contradictory evidence, I’m not rebutting a thesis. Bad evidence neither supports nor rebuts a thesis, it is a void. You haven’t built anything that _requires_ tearing down. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/233 "2017-07-18T21:51:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My point is that the poll was poorly worded, hence, it does not qualify as reliable evidence. I am not obliged to provide contradictory evidence, I’m not rebutting a thesis. Bad evidence neither supports nor rebuts a thesis, it is a void. You haven’t built anything that _requires_ tearing down. LOL, sure, if you think you made a valid point there, you go right ahead and carry on. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/234 "2017-07-18T22:05:17Z")
> [@sleestak](#): > > And what about the constant characterization of republican positions in false and hyper partisan language? > > Funny, on a board that is supposed to be about fighting ignorance (HA!) how no one really give a shit about that… > > Slee Project much? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/235 "2017-07-18T22:12:40Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s a fair point. I wish Gallup asked the “How patriotic are you?” question more frequently. I like this particular questions because it allows the respondent to decide for themselves what their own definition of “patriotism” is. As a bonus, it sidesteps a whole slew of anticipated arguments about whether “love your country” or “pride in your country” questions are an accurate measurement of patriotism. This one is just self-identified Rs, self-identified Ds, and self-identified patriotism. There are other, more recent polls by Gallup, such as this one ([Gallup: Sharply Fewer Democrats Say They Are Proud to Be Americans](http://www.gallup.com/poll/207614/sharply-fewer-democrats-say-proud-americans.aspx)), but I didn’t want to get sidetracked in a debate about whether “proud to be an American” is the same thing as “patriotic” or not. It’s an opinion poll using just about the vaguest and least descriptive question possible. Maybe if they expanded the reasons to get into _why_ respondents answered the way they did, it might have some value. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/236 "2017-07-18T22:16:57Z")
I’d say that self-reporting of patriotism sounds about as useful as self-reporting of online porn viewing or self-reporting of penis size. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2017, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/237 "2017-07-18T23:00:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > LOL, sure, if you think you made a valid point there, you go right ahead and carry on. :rolleyes: And in the same cordial spirit, I assure you that your approval means just as much to me now as it ever did! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/238 "2017-07-19T00:04:55Z")
Well, well, well, this got interesting, didn’t it? A bunch of advocates for science and truth and reality-based worldviews trying to hand-wave away a clear and unambiguous, scientific poll from a respected firm like Gallup because they don’t like the fact that it reveals. This certainly wasn’t a response I expected. > [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > It’s an opinion poll using just about the vaguest and least descriptive question possible. Maybe if they expanded the reasons to get into _why_ respondents answered the way they did, it might have some value. So you don’t think scientific polls with simple and direct questions have value? Stuff like ‘Do you approve or disapprove of the job Donald Trump is doing as President?’ No value there because it doesn’t get into _why_? That’s really the position you want to take? That modern opinion polling has no value? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’d say that self-reporting of patriotism sounds about as useful as self-reporting of online porn viewing or self-reporting of penis size. It wasn’t “self-_reporting_”. I said self-_identified_. Do you understand the difference? It was a scientific poll. To be specific: > [@](#): > > Results for this USA Today/Gallup poll are based on telephone interviews conducted June 11-13, 2010, with a random sample of 1,014 adults, aged 18 and older, living in the continental U.S., selected using random-digit-dial sampling. > > For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±4 percentage points. You still believe in science, don’t you? > [@elucidator](#): > > My point is that the poll was poorly worded, hence, it does not qualify as reliable evidence. I am not obliged to provide contradictory evidence, I’m not rebutting a thesis. Bad evidence neither supports nor rebuts a thesis, it is a void. You haven’t built anything that _requires_ tearing down. And to provide ' **luc** with more of an answer than his post merits: I’m not sure if you’re unacquainted with this new-fangled witchcraft known as polling, but this sort of extremely / very / somewhat formulation of the question is quite common one in polling. Here is an example about crime: > [@](#): > > [Overall, how would you describe the problem of crime in the United States – is it extremely serious, very serious, moderately serious, not too serious or not serious at all?](http://www.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx) Or another one about drugs: > [@](#): > > [Overall, how would you describe the problem of drugs in the area where you live – is it extremely serious, very serious, moderately serious, not too serious or not serious at all?](http://www.gallup.com/poll/196826/say-drug-problem-extremely-serious.aspx?g_source=position1&g_medium=related&g_campaign=tiles) What do you think, **Johnny Ace** , should we discard that data as having no value too, because it doesn’t get into “_why_”? Sheesh you guys, some times this place is a joke. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![snfaulkner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snfaulkner/32/433_2.png) [@snfaulkner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snfaulkner)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/239 "2017-07-19T00:40:14Z")
“Send out the clowns!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/240 "2017-07-19T01:04:25Z")
> [@snoe](#): > > **Make America Great Again - For Real This Time** Add “2020” (or “2018”) and put it on a blue baseball hat, and you’ve got the next campaign slogan. I like it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734.md?page=13)