# So what should be the Democrats' version of "Make America Great Again?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 8, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734 "2017-07-08T02:36:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/241 "2017-07-19T01:11:14Z")
This is an IOZ quote which may be even more relevant than when he said it back in the GWB years: > [@](#): > > Liberals were once fond of arguing that behind the patriotic gauze, Conservatives really hated America. They were always traducing its core, Constitutional values. It was a parochial but pithy observation that had, that has merit. On the other hand, liberals like Marcotte secretly despise the very system of representative government that they purport to venerate. They hate voters and think them ignorant. They believe in a sort of bowdlerized, near-universal false consciousness. They harp constantly on the poor fools who just don’t know what’s best for them, who are “dumb as bricks.” What an odd view of the “best and noblest form of government, the highest development of human society yet to grace the Earth.” > > All together now on three. The food in this restaurant is terrible! And the portions! So small! > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sheesh you guys, some times this place is a joke. :rolleyes: American liberals have a troubled history with the cognitive dissonances of patriotism, especially owing in part to Vietnam and Iraq. There’s no room for nuance in American discourse so they can’t explain how patriotism could ever be bad, and the concept strikes them as a relic from a less enlightened time, like believing in ghosts. If you’re going to run a system of global capital then patriotism is outdated, but it keeps biting them in the ass domestically so they gotta keep chipping away. That’s one reason all the American chest beating slogans in this thread feel so corny. On mainstream lib blogs, especially the comment sections, they often tell themselves they’re the real patriots. They like to point out how Republicans vote down healthcare for veterans or boo gay soldiers or don’t support rape victims in the military. I don’t know if they actually buy into this stuff or it’s a meta-reaction from the Cold War and War on Terror. They’ve been typecast as anti-patriots for so long that their efforts to break out look fake and backfires and makes their own supporters uncomfortable, e.g. Dukakis, Kerry, or the Dem '16 convention which was rah rah USA to the max. They tried to outflank Trump on patriotism, like pointing out how he insulted a gold star family or how he doesn’t buy American steel. This is all further complicated because it’s a big tent, so there’s plenty of libs who would make a string of ears or dig bullets out of pregnant women with a knife, anything to make Uncle Sam happy. Calling patriotism that goes too far “jingoism” reminds me of how when people want to defend capitalism ruining everything they call it “crony capitalism.” ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/242 "2017-07-19T01:51:13Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > So you don’t think scientific polls with simple and direct questions have value? Stuff like ‘Do you approve or disapprove of the job Donald Trump is doing as President?’ No value there because it doesn’t get into _why_? That’s really the position you want to take? That modern opinion polling has no value? > > It wasn’t “self-_reporting_”. I said self-_identified_. Do you understand the difference? It was a scientific poll. To be specific: > > You still believe in science, don’t you? > > And to provide ' **luc** with more of an answer than his post merits: I’m not sure if you’re unacquainted with this new-fangled witchcraft known as polling, but this sort of extremely / very / somewhat formulation of the question is quite common one in polling. > > Here is an example about crime: > > Or another one about drugs: > > What do you think, **Johnny Ace** , should we discard that data as having no value too, because it doesn’t get into “_why_”? > Sheesh you guys, some times this place is a joke. :rolleyes: You apparently missed the part about ‘vaguest and least descriptive.’ But please, continue to dig that hole. There’s a difference between literally quantifiable concepts (crime, drugs) and value judgments about self based on a completely _un_quantifiable concept. How many milliliters in 'extreme patriotism? Now, how many drug overdoses in your area over the last year? How many murders? Burglaries? Car thefts? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/243 "2017-07-19T01:57:41Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > This is an IOZ quote which may be even more relevant than when he said it back in the GWB years: > > American liberals have a troubled history with the cognitive dissonances of patriotism, especially owing in part to Vietnam and Iraq. There’s no room for nuance in American discourse so they can’t explain how patriotism could ever be bad, and the concept strikes them as a relic from a less enlightened time, like believing in ghosts. If you’re going to run a system of global capital then patriotism is outdated, but it keeps biting them in the ass domestically so they gotta keep chipping away. That’s one reason all the American chest beating slogans in this thread feel so corny. > > On mainstream lib blogs, especially the comment sections, they often tell themselves they’re the real patriots. They like to point out how Republicans vote down healthcare for veterans or boo gay soldiers or don’t support rape victims in the military. I don’t know if they actually buy into this stuff or it’s a meta-reaction from the Cold War and War on Terror. They’ve been typecast as anti-patriots for so long that their efforts to break out look fake and backfires and makes their own supporters uncomfortable, e.g. Dukakis, Kerry, or the Dem '16 convention which was rah rah USA to the max. They tried to outflank Trump on patriotism, like pointing out how he insulted a gold star family or how he doesn’t buy American steel. This is all further complicated because it’s a big tent, so there’s plenty of libs who would make a string of ears or dig bullets out of pregnant women with a knife, anything to make Uncle Sam happy. > > Calling patriotism that goes too far “jingoism” reminds me of how when people want to defend capitalism ruining everything they call it “crony capitalism.” Thank you, Dr. Freud. Could you possibly generalize any more? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/244 "2017-07-19T02:37:47Z")
> [@Johnny\_Ace](#): > > You apparently missed the part about ‘vaguest and least descriptive.’ But please, continue to dig that hole. > > There’s a difference between literally quantifiable concepts (crime, drugs) and value judgments about self based on a completely _un_quantifiable concept. How many milliliters in 'extreme patriotism? Now, how many drug overdoses in your area over the last year? How many murders? Burglaries? Car thefts? The questions were “Overall, how would you describe the problem of \_\_\_\_ in \_\_\_\_”. They weren’t “tell me how many murders there were?” or “how many drug overdoses in the last six months?”. Getting back to my question about presidential job approval polls. That’s an unquantifiable value judgement as well (unless you want to tell me how many milliliters there are in “good job, Mr. President”). Do you dismiss those as meaningless? Or are you going to hang your hat on “about self”? That would be an absurd line of “reasoning” as well: it’s ok to make unquantifiable value judgements about one’s neighborhood, one’s country, one’s president, but not about one’s self. :rolleyes: Gimme a break. You called it “just about the vaguest and least descriptive question possible”. I think that’s a ridiculous value judgement, but seeing as it’s your opinion, you’re entitled to it. Would you care to offer up an example of a polling question about patriotism that you think is more specific and less vague than “How patriotic are you?” If it’s really “just about the the vaguest and least descriptive question possible”, I imagine this will be an easy exercise for you. Or is patriotism itself just such an esoteric concept that it’s impossible to ask a non-vague and descriptive question about it? I’m not the one digging a hole here, you are. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/245 "2017-07-19T03:46:13Z")
Can y’all take your hijack somewhere else? Possibly another country? ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/246 "2017-07-19T04:58:00Z")
“Make America Grate Again” would get my vote. It’s about damn time that we finally had a candidate who had the courage to stand up to the pre-shredded cheese industry. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/247 "2017-07-19T05:04:54Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Can y’all take your hijack somewhere else? Sure thing boss. I’ve created [another thread in GD to continue the comparative patriotism discussion](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=20355146). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/248 "2017-07-19T06:54:42Z")
A quarantine thread? Good idea. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/249 "2017-07-19T09:39:11Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Well, well, well, this got interesting, didn’t it? A bunch of advocates for science and truth and reality-based worldviews trying to hand-wave away a clear and unambiguous, scientific poll from a respected firm like Gallup because they don’t like the fact that it reveals. This certainly wasn’t a response I expected. > > So you don’t think scientific polls with simple and direct questions have value? Stuff like ‘Do you approve or disapprove of the job Donald Trump is doing as President?’ No value there because it doesn’t get into _why_? That’s really the position you want to take? That modern opinion polling has no value? > > It wasn’t “self-_reporting_”. I said self-_identified_. Do you understand the difference? It was a scientific poll. To be specific: > > You still believe in science, don’t you? > > And to provide ' **luc** with more of an answer than his post merits: I’m not sure if you’re unacquainted with this new-fangled witchcraft known as polling, but this sort of extremely / very / somewhat formulation of the question is quite common one in polling. > > Here is an example about crime: > > Or another one about drugs: > > What do you think, **Johnny Ace** , should we discard that data as having no value too, because it doesn’t get into “_why_”? > Sheesh you guys, some times this place is a joke. :rolleyes: I absolutely believe the poll. I absolutely believe that fewer Democrats than Republicans identify themselves as extremely patriotic and the like. I just don’t think that actually tells us much at all about actual patriotism. I don’t think people are any more likely to honestly and accurately report their patriotism than they are their penis size. If your point is that Republicans are more likely to consider themselves highly patriotic, then I have no problem with the point. That’s what the scientific poll indicates, and I have no problem with the poll. Sent from my KFAUWI using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/250 "2017-07-19T10:20:15Z")
In my experience, confederate flag wavers consider themselves highly patriotic, in general. They also, in my experience, generally don’t believe they are in any way racist. I find both opinions, self identified, equally unlikely to be true. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/251 "2017-07-19T12:18:48Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > On mainstream lib blogs, especially the comment sections, they often tell themselves they’re the real patriots. They like to point out how Republicans vote down healthcare for veterans or boo gay soldiers or don’t support rape victims in the military. I don’t know if they actually buy into this stuff or it’s a meta-reaction from the Cold War and War on Terror. Perhaps they point this stuff out because Republicans do in fact [vote down healthcare for veterans](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-veterans-congress-idUSBREA1Q26O20140227), [boo gay soldiers](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3eMRlBgKYU) and [fail to support rape victims in the military](https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/01/gop-congressional-candidate-explains-why-military-rape-natural/357044/). > [@](#): > > Calling patriotism that goes too far “jingoism” reminds me of how when people want to defend capitalism ruining everything they call it “crony capitalism.” Since “jingoism” is defined as “extreme patriotism, especially in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy”, calling patriotism that goes too far “jingoism” seems fairly accurate to me. I’m not sure why it bothers you when liberals say things that are objectively true, but there you go. I’m also not sure why giving big piles of money to the Pentagon is considered supporting our troops but trying to actually provide real support for them isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/252 "2017-07-19T15:41:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In my experience, confederate flag wavers consider themselves highly patriotic, in general. They also, in my experience, generally don’t believe they are in any way racist. I find both opinions, self identified, equally unlikely to be true. Nothing demonstrates one’s patriotism like waving the flag of a country we once went to war with. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/253 "2017-07-21T16:25:53Z")
Well apparently thew new slogan, chosen after “months of polling and internal deliberations among the House Democratic caucus” (according to Vox Congressional reporter) is… drum roll… [“A Better Deal: Better Skills, Better Jobs, Better Wages”](http://www.newsweek.com/democrats-stealing-papa-johns-slogan-2018-639904) Democrats are as tone-deaf as ever. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/254 "2017-07-21T16:47:17Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Well apparently thew new slogan, chosen after “months of polling and internal deliberations among the House Democratic caucus” (according to Vox Congressional reporter) is… > > drum roll… > > [“A Better Deal: Better Skills, Better Jobs, Better Wages”](http://www.newsweek.com/democrats-stealing-papa-johns-slogan-2018-639904) > > Democrats are as tone-deaf as ever. I’ll admit that it doesn’t really roll of the tongue, but which of those do you object to? ---
**Author:** ![pjacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@pjacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjacks)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/255 "2017-07-21T17:01:23Z")
At least it’s an economy-focused slogan, that certainly wasn’t a given. Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/256 "2017-07-21T17:01:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I’ll admit that it doesn’t really roll of the tongue, but which of those do you object to? The “doesn’t really roll off the tongue” part. They don’t understand what a “slogan” means. It doesn’t mean “cram a policy paper into one sentence”. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/257 "2017-07-21T17:04:21Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The “doesn’t really roll off the tongue” part. They don’t understand what a “slogan” means. It doesn’t mean “cram a policy paper into one sentence”. It worked for “Make America Great Again.” And that was nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/258 "2017-07-21T17:20:48Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The “doesn’t really roll off the tongue” part. They don’t understand what a “slogan” means. It doesn’t mean “cram a policy paper into one sentence”. My favorite bumper sticker slogan is “Good policy doesn’t fit on a bumper sticker.” or even a recursively self referential and self contradictory statement “Only bad policy fits on a bumper sticker.” And that’s not really a policy paper, a policy paper explains how those things are to be achieved. One of clinton’s (many) faults on the camping trail is that she would read a policy paper to her audience. They would nod off, and then complain that she never addressed any of the issues that she spoke about, while repeating over and over the one line out of context that makes it look like it means the opposite of what it says. So, the slogan, while maybe a bit unwieldy, is not a policy paper, not even a policy. It is a goal to be achieved through policies. This may not be obvious to those who think that Make America Great Again is a policy, but that too, is just a slogan. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/259 "2017-07-21T17:26:34Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > This may not be obvious to those who think that Make America Great Again is a policy, but that too, is just a slogan. Of course it’s a slogan. But it’s a snappy (and yugely successful) one. As opposed to the ridiculous clunker of “A Better Deal: Better Skills, Better Jobs, Better Wages”. But please, Democrats, go with that. ---
**Author:** ![pjacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@pjacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjacks)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2017, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734/260 "2017-07-21T17:32:59Z")
It also unfortunately will lead Trump to inevitably mock the slogan with comments like"A better deal?! I’m the king of deals, I wrote the Art of the Deal, no one makes deals like I do, blah blah" and on and on until the midterms. Maybe not the best choice. Sent from my R1 HD using Tapatalk [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-be-the-democrats-version-of-make-america-great-again/790734.md?page=14)