# So what should happen to these two defendants? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 14, 2010, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740 "2010-09-14T17:07:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/81 "2010-09-15T17:12:15Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > No convicted killer has ever escaped from prison? I’ve already asked for a cite for the percentage in the last 50 years of life-imprisonment-without-parole convicts who have escaped and committed further violent crimes. Bonus points if you compare the number versus the number of people who’ve been released from death row for being innocent. > [@](#): > > Kind of disputes the black/white thesis of murder conviction and death penalty. Only in the same way that the fact that there were some Black slaveholders in the American South disputes that the majority of slaveholders were white. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/82 "2010-09-15T17:12:47Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > > [@aruvqan](#): > > > > The majority of killers that I would see executed happen to be white. > > So you want to change the death penalty to only apply to really heinous crimes? Because you ignored pretty much everybody but high-profile serial killers. What’s your cutoff?. Serial killers, mass murderers, spree killers, and really really depraved murders. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/83 "2010-09-15T17:14:55Z")
Assuming they are found guilty, life without parole. > [@aruvqan](#): > > they are very very broken and can not be fixed, and are a danger to society. why should we spend the kind of money to keep then in jail for 10-20-30 more years? It’s cheaper than executing them, you know. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/84 "2010-09-15T17:18:43Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Serial killers, mass murderers, spree killers, and really really depraved murders. Please define, in a legally acceptable way “serial,” “spree,” and “really really depraved.” ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/85 "2010-09-15T17:22:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It’s cheaper than executing them, you know. We’ve already been through this. She wants to eliminate their rights to appeals, take them out back, and shoot them in the head. > [@villa](#): > > Please define, in a legally acceptable way “serial,” “spree,” and “really really depraved.” I second this request. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/86 "2010-09-15T17:26:06Z")
> [@villa](#): > > > [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > > > Serial killers, mass murderers, spree killers, and really really depraved murders. > > Please define, in a legally acceptable way “serial,” “spree,” and “really really depraved.” Serial=Killing more than once for the sheer thrill of it. Spree=Two separate incidences of killing people within a short period of time. like you are hunting human prey. Depraved=Torturing victims before killing them. All three of these catagories carry the idea of enjoying killing your victims. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/87 "2010-09-15T17:27:57Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Serial=Killing more than once for the sheer thrill of it. > Spree=Two separate incidences of killing people within a short period of time. like you are hunting human prey. > Depraved=Torturing victims before killing them. > > All three of these catagories carry the idea of enjoying killing your victims. Now define “for the sheer thrill of it,” “within a short period of time,” “like you are hunting,” and “torturing” in ways relevant to a court room that don’t end up over inclusive. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/88 "2010-09-15T17:28:28Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > We already can do this, and we already do. > > No convicted killer has ever escaped from prison? How frequent do you think prison escapes are, outside of comic books? ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/89 "2010-09-15T17:33:03Z")
> [@Faruiza](#): > > Anyway, what about a nice compromise? What if we were to make sure that along with keeping them alive in a miserable environment, (prison) we remove their ability to harm others by removing hands and teeth? That way, they won’t be able to hurt again in case they escape, get let out somehow, or want to be predators within the prison system? Off with their legs as well then. I believe in most cases I’d certainly endorse a life w/o parole policy. Every once in awhile though one will come along that, like the OP, just makes my blood boil, animals incapable of compassion that are best wiped off the face of the Earth. I’d have no trouble as a juror giving those in the linked story the DP, just like I would have here for the horrible things they did to [Jennifer and Elizabeth](http://www.murdervictims.com/voices/jeneliz.html). ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/90 "2010-09-15T17:33:49Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Serial=Killing more than once for the sheer thrill of it. > Spree=Two separate incidences of killing people within a short period of time. like you are hunting human prey. > Depraved=Torturing victims before killing them. > > All three of these catagories carry the idea of enjoying killing your victims. So how about someone who’s a contract killer for some kind of organized crime organization, like a gang or the Mafia? They’re killing repeatedly, and probably torturing some people before they do it, too, but for business, not for pleasure. If you would give them the death penalty, how would you deal with members of the American military who have [tortured people to death](http://www.aclu.org/human-rights-national-security/us-operatives-killed-detainees-during-interrogations-afghanistan-and-)? > [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > How frequent do you think prison escapes are, outside of comic books? Shockingly, not one of the people making these escape claims has yet come up with the cite I’ve asked them for. Shockingly. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/91 "2010-09-15T17:36:19Z")
Well, obviously nobody who escaped from prison and is on the lam is going to _tell you_ about it, silly. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/92 "2010-09-15T17:42:22Z")
I think we might, just maybe, notice they were missing, though. Maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/93 "2010-09-15T18:13:06Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > If we’re not 100% certain, we can’t kill people. And since we are not 100^ certain that those we sentence to life without parole will not kill again, as did people like Tookie Williams and Ed Wein then we have to respect the small possibility of error and execute them instead. The only reasonable way out of this dilemma is to choose the alternative that kills the smallest number of innocent people. There is considerable anecdotal evidence of innocent people being killed by people in prison, but little to none of innocent people actually being executed (at least in the last thirty five years or so). > [@](#): > > Yeah, but let’s make it a little harder. Instead of you, what if it was your son, your daughter, your spuse, your brother or sister? Would you be willing to sacrifuice one of your own “innocent” children for the mere satisfaction of an active death penalty I am perfectly willing to accept the risk of me or one of my relatives being wrongly executed in return for the elimination of the risk of being murdered by a repeat offender. > [@](#): > > Do you have no moral center at all? Don’t be ridiculous - you can;t argue in one thread that everyone is the absolute moral authority for themselves and then turn around and pretend that your opinions have any moral weight for anyone else at all. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > because the Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Cite? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/94 "2010-09-15T18:15:05Z")
I voted before reading the article, because I’m not in favor of the death penalty under any circumstances. Then I read the article. I agree the crime is heinous and sickening, but the proper punishment should be based on law and not visceral emotion or desire for vengeance. So I stick to my vote. Besides, according to the article, one of the prisoners has already attempted suicide. Why give him what he wants? Make him live with the memories. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/95 "2010-09-15T18:37:26Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > We already can do this, and we already do. > > No convicted killer has ever escaped from prison? They don’t escape from the really hardcore lockdowns, no. > [@](#): > > So we can’t guarentee they will not have a second’s worth of pleasure. And I wonder how thw victims’ families felt about that. There is no public interest in making sure they don’t have a moment’s pleasure. That’s not a goal of the justice system. We’re not into mind control. > [@](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > What about them? > > Kind of disputes the black/white thesis of murder conviction and death penalty. No it doesn’t. The stats are the stats. It’s not a “thesis,” and therewas never any claim that ONLY black people get the death penalty, only that they get it _disproportionately_. This is completely fallacious. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/96 "2010-09-15T18:49:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > > If we’re not 100% certain, we can’t kill people. > > And since we are not 100^ certain that those we sentence to life without parole will not kill again, as did people like Tookie Williams and Ed Wein then we have to respect the small possibility of error and execute them instead. This is really, really specious. Yes we can make sure they don’t kill again if we really want to. Concrete boxes work just fine. Nobody all alone in a concrete box ever killed somebody else. > [@](#): > > The only reasonable way out of this dilemma There is no dilemma, just a desperate scrabble for an excuse to kill people. We are perfectly able to make sure convicted killers can’t kill anybody else. > [@](#): > > Don’t be ridiculous - you can’t argue in one thread that everyone is the absolute moral authority for themselves and then turn around and pretend that your opinions have any moral weight for anyone else at all. :rolleyes: Yes I can, because I never said everybody’s moral authority is equal to mine. I am the last word. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > because the Constitution requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. > > Cite? [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=397&invol=358](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=397&invol=358) ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/97 "2010-09-15T18:50:49Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > And since we are not 100^ certain that those we sentence to life without parole will not kill again, as did people like Tookie Williams and Ed Wein then we have to respect the small possibility of error and execute them instead. Please feel free to demonstrate ways in which our legal system favors potentially punishing the innocent over potentially letting the guilty go free. Oh wait. It’s the _exact opposite_. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/98 "2010-09-15T19:07:14Z")
Also, I \*love \* the people talking about how the number of people who’ve been freed through DNA evidence alone means the system is fixed now… ignoring that there’s probably a similar proportion of wrongly convicted people in cases where there is no DNA evidence or it’s never been tested. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/99 "2010-09-15T19:52:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am perfectly willing to accept the risk of me or one of my relatives being wrongly executed in return for the elimination of the risk of being murdered by a repeat offender. After initially voting to execute these guys, I must return to my complete opposition to the death penalty. It is purely selfish; I may be innocent and be convicted sometime. We “know” these guys did it, but most folks who vote on a jury “know” the guy was guilty, or they would have voted differently. ---
**Author:** ![Faruiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Faruiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faruiza)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740/100 "2010-09-15T22:16:41Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So, you think that someone who steals clothing at gunpoint should be forced to be permanently naked? :rolleyes: The life they have is not the one they took from someone else. What you seem to desire is not restitution but revenge. You hurt us, so now we are going to hurt you back. You know, it is entirely possible that you’re right. It may be about revenge because the highest capital crimes are heinous in a way that simply holding someone at gunpoint for their clothes is not. That question about being naked is ridiculous. What I would hope for the criminal in that scenario is that he’s punished just as he would be punished now. It is not a capital crime. We’re talking about death penalty vs life without parole. That does not apply to more minor crimes. Taking an innocent person’s life through violence is considered the worst thing that one can do. I don’t necessarily feel that a murderer getting to live out their life in an institution is enough. Death may be too much, only because of the error rate in the court. Like I said, I sit on the fence. I can see that this is a very emotional issue for you. That’s cool. Glad you can use rolleyes to make your point in the rudest way possible as though I insulted your grandmother. Yep, you told me! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-happen-to-these-two-defendants/553740.md?page=6)